warranty question

Just put the old stuff back on if you need to have service done.

This may not be good enough if the oil from K&N fouls the MAF sensor which they tend to do.If so they will figure out that you had on on it. Honestly they are not the wisest mod and they do filter the air less too which has been well proven in several ISO tests.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Hello Snoman,

Can you tell me where to locate the documentation which supports these ISO tests please? If there is any, it should be readily available. Via a google search wouldn't you say?

I presume you are implying that Chevrolet does then, void warranties if these are used? If you know of any documentation of that or those occurance/s, I would also be grateful to know about their existence as well.

What is the scenario, (as in any contingent damage), that is purported to be caused to any part, from a K & N oil fouled MAF sensor and downwind from that K & N oil foulded MAF sensor?

If in fact it has been proven that a K & N filter does not filter air as well as the stock paper filter, then there should also be scientific data documenting that as well. I don't believe it is enough to make the statement as fact without the evidence to back it up. Do you? I know you may say, "well, I've seen the evidence myself many times," and I can't argue with this if so, but if this is what your statements are based on, please say so. Thank you.

bullie

You are not searching hard enough because they have a marginal airflow increase with reduced filtering. There was a good test of one on a Dmax and it sucked big time compared to even a stock GM filter. These ISO test is currently off line but there are other. I have a copy of it but I will not post it without authors approval. Also, you just get some oil and than MAF sensor and watch them not replace it under warranty becuase the only way it can get there is from a K&N filter and if you search various forums you will find a lot of comments on them fouling out MAF's and I just saw a new one last we. You must not get around or read much because it can be a real issue. WHy anyone would put a air filter on a 4x4 that filters less is beyond me and if it was that easy to get extra power and MPG magically, they would come that way from factory. As they ship GM engine are well tuned from intake to exhaust but there are still those that have to cut and hack and think they know better but your money could surely be better spent. 20 or 30 years ago air filters and intakes for them were not very high flow but that is not the case today but the myth persists.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Snoman,

I find no such negative articles in a google search of the web, entering K&N or K and N, or K & N air filter, or any combination or derivatives of these that I can come up with.

I also did an advanced google groups search, which I understand includes all of the former dejanews archives, and while you can find negative comments about K & N, none that I find are supported with any actual corroborative evidence or scientific data. That makes it all hearsay. There is even some indication some auto manufactures brand their own version of K&N filters and Toyota is one of them, and they warrant them as well. They most likely use MAF sensors, wouldn't you say? Still, like all of what is said on usenet, it's hearsay without evidence to support claims. To say something like, "I have a friend who has a friend who...," well, you get the idea.

I see where K & N itself has apparently responded to some of the above mentioned posts, claiming all their filters are subjected to ISO 5011 Standards. So far, detractors show no actual data to suggest any of their claims, though they say they have it, or can get it. So where is it?

Your point about marginal air flow increase isn't valid, simply because there is no data to support the claim. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to criticize you, there isn't any point in that.

I can understand not posting copywrited material, unless it is posted in it's entirety and the author is given credit. But who is the author, and why wouldn't it be freely distributed in such case? Is he a scientist? Or someone else who might be qualified by any means?

It would appear to me that the amount of oil in my factory oiled K & N filter is perhaps so miniscule in terms of volume, that even if the entire amount used on it were sprayed directly from a can, bypassing any filter, and directly through the MAF sensor with the engine running in one blast it might be neglibable if even the MAF sensor were damaged. OTOH road film, and yes, oil on the roads..there is plenty of it, might also, over time pass through any available filter on the market today, over time.

Draw your own conclusions as to the possibilities, but unless you can support claims with something definitave, what is the point or motivation? Other than that, and since you appear at some time at least to have worked at a Chevrolet dealership, do you personally know of any warranty denials in any form based on the use of a K & N filter?

bullie

While I rarely agree with anything that Snoman says....I will give credit where credit is due. He's right, and you are wrong....and you are wasting your money on those types of filters, and if any damage is done to the MAF sensor because of "overoiling" the filter, there is no warranty for "driveability" concerns that occur because of an oil fouled MAF sensor.

In case you need more proof, I work in a GM dealership and I will quote below from the relevent bulletin:

The use of an excessively/over-oiled aftermarket, reusable air filter may result in: . Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On

. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or band(s)

. Engine driveability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop, limited engine RPM range

The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the sensor. As a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.

When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively/over- oiled air filter. The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with an OEM air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.

The use of an aftermarket reusable air filter DOES NOT void the vehicle's warranty.

If an aftermarket reusable air filter is used, technicians should inspect the MAF sensor element and the air induction hose for contamination of oil prior to making warranty repairs.

Transmission or engine driveability concerns (related to the MAF sensor being contaminated with oil) that are the result of the use of an aftermarket reusable, excessively/over-oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items.

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information. WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION

Ian

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What is it exactly that I am wrong about?

and you are wasting your money on those types

I appreciate your input, though I don't know specifially which part of snoman's post is right, either. I don't recall him specifying over oiling, but I would venture a guess that common sense would suggest that that condition could be a problem.

You seem to narrow the issue down to over oiling. Thats fine, and I agree that it could cause problems. I do not agree that the K&N has less or immeasurable air flow differences, or that it doesn't filter as good. Except in the the possible condition of over oiling.

It may do this if I restrict air flow over it with my hand too right?

As with any air restriction, correct?

That makes sense taken in conjunction with over oiling. Anti freeze in the engine compartment, or exhaust gas, or the smoking or burning of any oil or fluid on any part of the engine exterior might create the same condition. How do we determine the source if any of these were a possibility, or even obvious?

I understand that the filter that came with my aircharger is good for 50,000 miles. I would replace it rather than re-oil it, even before this all came up, because I can feel the difference in my acceleration, a BIG difference, and I can see the added 1.5 to 2.0 mpg increase in *city* driving under the same repeated conditions, and the mileage gain over that time should well more than pay for another filter. Hell, the warranty ain't even good past 36K!

Before or after checking the MAF sensor itself?

Wouldn't it be simpler to connect a known good MAF sensor and see what the result was? Or at least, after doing the comparison the bulletin suggests, then swap the two and see if that solves the problem?

How do they check for oil content in a suspect contaminated MAF sensor, by eyeballing it? By laboratory analysis? How much is too much? And why does a technician have to be reminded to check for the presense of contamination, oil or otherwise, on a part that would be suspect anyway? Is it better to suggest or imply there MAY HAVE been, (at one time?), an after market air cleaner installed? And that that could be the only source of oil contamination? And this, apparently seems to suggest the air filter is not obviously present?

Thank you. I still hope to hear it from Chevrolet.

ok, now were getting to it, but not, (don't check it unless one is used), unless an aftermarket reusable air filter is used?

and the air induction hose for contamination of oil

Since it's a simple matter to check myself, I think I will do that regularly. A tissue swabbing inside should do it, but wait the "air induction hose," comes after the MAF sensor on mine. So guess we could be talking about damage to other parts as well? Or not?

OK, can't argue with that. But is it possible it could be oil from something else? or some other "oily" contaminate?

"That" was from Chevrolet. Are you stupid? And they are talking about the "overall" warranty, but I doubt that you caught that detail.

My suggestion is that you simply run the K & N filter and don't bother asking whether it voids the warranty unless you are willing to listen. Do whatever you want....take the consequences that may or may not happen. I doubt that anyone here will care. I know that I don't.

Ian

Read the following and you will discover that it has happened.

Info - Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter #04-07-30-013 - (03/05/2004)

Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter 2004 and Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks 2003-2004 HUMMER H2

First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter

DO NOT REPAIR UNDER WARRANTY if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter.

The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may result in: a.. Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On b.. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or band(s) c.. Engine drivability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop, limited engine RPM range

The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the sensor. As a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.

When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter. The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.

Transmission or engine drivability concerns that are the result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items.

This part is from a gentleman who actually TESTED K&N in real world applications.

Subj: K & N filters

John: If I wrote "subjective" I meant "objective".. I was responsible for evaluating re-usable air filters for a major construction/mining company that had hundreds of vehicles ranging from large earthmovers to pick-up trucks and salesmen's cars. This study was embarked upon due to the fact that we were spending upwards of $30,000 a MONTH on paper air filters. Using them one time then throwing them away.. I initiated the study in that I was convinced that a K&N type filter or oiled foam would save us many dollars per year in filter savings, man hour savings, and of course engines as these would filter dirt better than paper. (yes, I had read the K&N ads and was a believer)

Representative test units were chosen to give us a broad spectrum from cars right through large front end loaders. With each unit we had a long history of oil analysis records so that changes would be traceable. Unfortunately, for me, every single unit having alternative re-usable air cleaners showed an immediate large jump in silicon (dirt)levels with corresponding major increases in wear metals. In one extreme case, a unit with a primary and secondary air cleaner, the secondary (small paper element) clogged before even one day's test run could be completed. This particular unit had a Cummins V-12 engine that had paper / paper on one bank and K&N / paper on the other bank; two completely independent induction systems. The conditions were EXACTLY duplicated for each bank yet the K&N allowed so much dirt to pass through that the small filter became clogged before lunch. The same outcome occurred with oiled foams on this unit.

We discontinued the tests on the large pieces almost immediately but continued with service trucks, foremen's vehicles, and my own company car. Analysis results continued showing markedly increased wear rates for all the vehicles, mine included. Test concluded, switched back to paper/glass and all vehicles showed reduction back to near original levels of both wear metals and dirt. I continued with the K&N on my company car out of stubbornness and at 85,000 miles the Chevy 305 V-8 wheezed its last breath. The top end was sanded badly; bottom end was just fine. End of test.

I must stress that EVERYONE involved in this test was hoping that alternative filters would work as everyone was sick about pulling out a perfectly good $85 air cleaner and throwing 4 of them away each week per machine...

So, I strongly suggest that depending upon an individual's long term plan for their vehicles they simply run an oil analysis at least once to see that the K&N or whatever alternative air filter is indeed working IN THAT APPLICATION... It depends on a person's priorities. If you want performance then indeed the K&N is the way to go but at what cost???

And no, I do not work for a paper or glass air filter manufacturing company nor do I have any affiliation with anything directly or indirectly that could benefit George Morrison as a result..

From the SI service manual set:

Info - Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter #04-07-30-013 - (03/05/2004) Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter

2003-2004 HUMMER H2

DO THIS

DON'T DO THIS

First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket excessively oiled air filter

DO NOT repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter. The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may result in:

• Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On * Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or band(s) * Engine driveability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop, limited engine RPM range

The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the sensor. As a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.

When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter. The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.

Transmission or engine driveability concerns that are the result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items.

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information. WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION

Yeehaw.....we've got ourselves a live one! Go away, you dumb troll!

Ian

There are several (like 2 I have seen so far) that do not use oil.Just clean them with water and there cleaning spray.And then reinstall,NO oil. AEM is one , Summit carries it.

Not worth any more time to convince a shill..

Bullie wrote

Uh....that's "scottish", not "irish", and drop the samurai, keep the sushi lovin'.

Ian

and i dare you to wear your plaid skirt to work all week

It wouldn't work.....the guys I work with only like shaved legs and I don't have the time for that. Plus a kilt won't fit into my coveralls.

Ian