Audi Tiptronic gearboxes

The Tiptronic is not a true manual gearbox.

The best way to describe it is an automatic with a very high degree of gear affinity. In other words it stays in whatever gear it is put in for as long as the mechanical safety envelope is not violated. It will however downshift or upshit by itself if the engine revs too high or too low for the gear that is engaged.

dk

In message , Dan Koren writes

The point is that the Tiptronic gearbox has a torque converter between the engine and the gearbox which is what leads to power loss in the fluid through slip between the input and the output. In that sense, it is a traditional automatic gearbox.

OTOH the Multitronic is a mechanical connection via steel belt and variable pulleys and is more economic because drive to the wheels is never interrupted. The Multitronic does have an electric clutch to prevent the engine stalling whilst the car is stationary, but once engaged there is no slip unlike a torque converter.

The DSG which is not available yet on the A4 is a different matter ....

All AIUI, of course. I'm not an engineer.

[Snip]

Indeed - it is alway better to think of the Tiptronic as a conventional epicyclic gearbox, with torque convertor, but allowing a certain degree of driver control over the gear changes.

The Multitronic is a 'Continuously Variable Transmission' (CVT) which, in its natural mode, will attempt to hold the engine revs constant, irrespective of roadspeed. This gives a peculiar sensation because road speed varies with no change in sound from the engine. Because this can be unnerving, Audi have provided an alternative mode of control where certain 'ratios' can be chosen by the driver, giving a more conventional feel. This gearbox is (at the moment?) not compatible with the quattro drive line so quattros are currently built with Tiptronic, and fwd are built with multitronic.

One thing to be aware of with multitronic is that there can be a considerable delay between pressing the accelerator pedal and clutch engagement - I find this particularly disconcerting when trying to pull onto a busy roundabout. I don't know whether quoted performance figures start timing from the accelerator movement, or from the point where the car starts to move!

When comparing 0-60 times for manual and automatic cars, it is always worth remembering that in order to achieve the best 0-60 times with a manual the driver needs to be quite brutal with the gearbox and clutch - in a manner that most owners are unlikely to repeat on a regular basis. Performance figures for an automatic gearbox are much less brutal and more easily reproducible. I suspect that, in the real world, there is not a great deal of difference in everday performance between manual and automatic.

Of course, some engines are more suited to an automatic gearbox than others - the 4.2 turbo in my RS6, for instance!

Indeed - DSG is only available in transverse-engined Audis, at present.

On paper yes, I bet on the road you can beat the manual 9 times out of ten.

Of course, the biggest difference between the Tip and the Multitronic is that the latter doesn't come with quattro! So, if you want quattro, you're stuck with the Tip. Which is a shame, as the Multitronic isn't that bad for an automatic. I drove a 2006 A4 loaner with one recently and besides the 'CVT' mode (which is pretty weird as the car goes to about 1800 rpm and stays there while accelerating) it also has a

7-'gear' Tip mode and a sport mode, which is also 7 'gears' but shifts automatically. If I HAD to drive an automatic, I'd prefer it to the Tiptronic. Fortunately, I don't have to drive a slushbox.

Dan D '04 A4 1.8Tq MT-6 Central NJ USA

I can't speak to the A4 specifically, but I have an '03 Passat with Tiptronic and, yes, it will be significantly slower than a manual. Specifically, the shifts themselves are quite slow and gradual, presumably to make them feel smoother. Even when using it in Tip mode, shifts are very sluggish - the actual shift doesn't happen for at least half a second after you actually move the lever. I just can't *wait* to get a new model with DSG.

-- Mike Smith

Thanks everyone for the replies. I now understand the difference between the two types. The multitronic sounds similar to the variomatic system invented by DAF in the 1970s!

I still haven't decided decide what to get though, I'm going to have to spend some more time test driving the various models. My local Audi dealer has an A3 3.2 Quattro with DSG that I am going to take for a spin even though it's slightly out of my budget.

My current car is a Mercedes SLK230. Before I bought it, I never thought I'd own a car with an Auto box but, two years down the line, the thought of having to change gear manually seems alien. Sadly the Merc only has two seats and my wife and I have a baby on the way so I have to go for something a little more practical.

Anyway, thanks again.

Gareth

Exactly the same principle, yes! Just a little more hi-tech!

Indeed, I owned a 1975 model DAF 66 for a couple of years back in 1985. The fun thing about that belt drive system was you could drive just as quickly backwards as forwards, if you chose to be both stupid and careful at the same time ;-)

/Robert, whose A4 1,8TS is slower in reverse than the DAF ...

Absolutely. I remember one time in around 1975, I was driving up through Alton when a DAF shot off a garage forecourt, in reverse, across the main road and came to rest against the stone wall opposite. In the driving seat was a bewildered-looking toddler, running behind the car was an anxious-looking father! I just managed to stop in time to avoid the collision.

I remember a woman who lived down the street where my aunt lives got killed by one driving off unexpectedly.

Can you get the DSG with the 2.0T engine? That would be a VERY nice combination, in my view, if you had to have an automatic gearbox. It would make a great-size car for a new baby. No quattro on the 2.0T here in the US, but still....

Dan D '04 A4 1.8Tq MT-6 Central NJ USA

How did you come to *that* conclusion?

E.P.

He can't make the single 1-2 up-shift needed to save his life?

/daytripper '00 s4 6spd

I guess not. ;)

E.P.

Not my conclusions, and like most UK people, I've owned [1] nothing but manual boxes anyway, so yes I can make the up-shift, and in my mk2 Golf GTi it was 2 upshifts to get to 60 :p

But seriously, go and find two identical spec cars bar the gearbox, stick them on a drag strip, now try and beat each other, 10 times in a row. Now even try and get the factory times out of the manual [1], some of the techniques used aren't very friendly on the transmission. The auto will do it everytime and all you've got to do is stick it in drive and plant the throttle, and it will do it time in time out everyday, even when you are not in the mood to get it right.

I know the drag strip challenge has been done with two Porsche 928GTSs by a pair in the smaller uk porsche club. The auto did the strip in, and I can't remember the exact time so for the sakes of arguments I'm going to say 11 seconds, and varied 0.3 of a second either side on the 10 runs. The manual did it once or twice faster then the auto by about 0.5 second, but was often 2-4seconds slower. For the last three runs the manual didn't run at all because the clutch was starting to smoke and smell expensive. The auto just kept going.

[1] Actually if the dealer hadn't resold the car I put a deposit on earlier this year I'd have an auto now... [2] I've not being keeping abreast of modern Autocar road tests but I can recall for the 80 RS2 that usual test methods got it to within about 1 second of the factory 0-60 time, then through experiments found what you had to do was side step the clutch at 4000 revs, it made some horendous noises, but you lost over a second off the 0-60. Not recommended for daily use, but do at least try once.

Jon B said -

That doesn't necessarily prove your point. You're talking about 2 high-performance cars where dumping the clutch probably would just result in a bunch of wheelspin while the auto box would probably mitigate that. Besides, you said 'on the street', not on the strip! ;-)

In our Audis I'd wager on the stick every time, assuming 2 identical cars and equally-skilled drivers. Especially with quattro, where the stick wouldn't have the wheelspin problem.

Dan D '04 A4 1.8Tq MT-6 Central NJ USA

Thats backing up what I said, a good driver can be faster when he can be bothered, and when he gets it right, but the auto will be that fast everytime. The manual is more satisfying when you get it right, a pain in the arse in traffic sitting on the clutch. Luckily I live in a ruralish area so I take the manual, but when we have heavy traffic (or I've put my back out) I do ponder about the auto.

I didn't say 2 GOOD drivers, just 2 equally-skilled drivers. I imagine a racer with an automatic could beat me in a stick every time.....! ;-) But taking 2 drivers of the same skill level, I feel like the stick would win every time.

Dan D '04 A4 1.8Tq MT-6 Central NJ USA