Re: Braking in New Handbrake shoes and Disks

Or perhaps people who regularly heel & toe, don't buy cars with pedal layouts ill-conceived for that technique. Most of us test drive cars before buying and wouldn't it seem likely that we would at some point recognize whether or not that car suits our needs. For example: someone like Ignasi, who uses the handbrake regularly, isn't likely to decide to buy a manual tranny car with a foot operated parking brake (ala Cadillac), is he?

Well, we would have to agree it is "so".

I'm sorry, but I can no sooner explain a French car, than I can flowery French prose. Maybe when Nissan decides to imply a bit more influence on Renault, that van will be better organized.

In my experience, most vehicles have brake pedals that are too far apart or at very different heights to make heel-and-toe possible or comfortable to use.

It's not that it's a big deal to do heel-and-toe but the handbrake works much better.

Hmm. So you were in your driver's seat and you were sure the bumper of the car behind was "less than 3 inches" from your bumper. Interesting.

brakes until

Ever wondered why they started to appear in American cars?

Well, you just proved my point.

Actually I did not say you drove an automatic. But never mind.

earlier, he

Can't comment too much on your friend but I also observe that most drivers over here use their brakes unnecessarily when they can just coast without throttle to slow down on the freeway. In many cases, it does not matter if they were driving an automatic because I notice the same thing even when I am driving my truck, which has an automatic transmission.

However, none of this has nothing to do with using the handbrake in hill starts.

decline,

For a '94 - that's not bad at all.

recognize

Well, I don't think you can rev-match in a Cadillac with a foot-operated parking brake anyway. They are automatics.

The CTS and CTS-V (which represent the majority of Cadillac car sales) come with 6 speed manual transmission and a foot operated parking brake....standard.

Well, the sedans I drive are BMW's and I haven't had one in quite a few years that wasn't set up nicely for heel & toe. I think I have to go all the way back to the E21 before I hit upon a BMW I have owned which had pedal placement less that suitable for heel & toe. The lateral spread was good, but the pedals were placed to far above the floor pan. I cannot speak to whatever cars you drive, but I thought you were an E39 owner. My E39's were superb in this regard, and have been roundly praised in the motoring press for their pedal placement on this point.

Unlike the 3er the 540i doesn't work very well with heel-&-toe technique. Firstly, the pedals are not well-located. This issue has been debated thoroughly on the ROADFLY.COM newsgroup so you can look for yourself. Most people seem to roll their ankles to the left and use the ball of their feet. But it doesn't always work. I place the heel of my foot on the brakes and point right towards the throttle with my toes. My feet are otherwise too narrow to bridge the pedals with a rolling action. All of this can be vastly improved with some modifications and new pedals. Unfortunately, there's another problem.

The other unfortunate part about the E39's design has nothing to do with the pedals. It's the electronic throttle control. This issue has also been debated on the ROADFLY.COM newsgroup. The throttle-blipping response in the 540 is severely muted because BMW chose to design the throttle to allow it to obtain a more favourable EPA gas mileage rating. Blipping the throttle in the 540i is very tricky business. It isn't predictable because it's not mechanical - the electronics decide if they should respond under a broader set of conditions, of which I have little clue to. It's better in the I-6 models as they seem less restricted by this throttle design but even they are not as responsive as older BMWs. Which E39 model do you drive?

FWIW, because I trained on a 3er I sometimes heel-&-toe instinctively in my 540i but I don't bother to do it consciously because the throttle response to blipping is so unpredictable - no sense unsettling the car when the revs don't match anyway. In any case, the torque from the V-8, post-corner, is so abundant that I can afford to take my corners a bit slower than I would have in a 3er. I just try to drive smoothly with a reserve of power in case I have to maneuver out of harm's way. I don't race on the streets.

If you want to debate what I say I would prefer to direct you to the pros and other people on ROADFLY.COM. Otherwise, it just becomes an issue of my opinion against yours. I have said all I care to on this particular topic. Here's a good webpage by pros on heel-&-toe:

"...Heel Toe cannot be done smoothly unless two things are done:

1) The pedals must be matched. Normally this is done by adjusting until the brake and throttle are even in height, when the brakes are pressed on. The pedals must also be properly spaced. In my car it required adjusting and bending the gas pedal until I got the match I needed. In many cars, the pedals have some range of adjustment, making the process easier. One thing to remember, as you adjust the gas pedal, make sure that there is a mechanical stop for the pedal. If you rely on the stops in the carburetor or injection system to stop the motion, you will probably bend or break something as you try to squeeze a couple more horsepower out of the pedal. Also, make sure the linkage allows the butterflies in the carburetor to be fully open when the pedal hits your mechanical stop.

..."

Yes, you're right. My bad. That would be an interesting point regarding the manual CTS models.

I haven't tested those cars as their interiors are too plain and I am only looking for an upscale roadster anyway. I imagine the CTS brake pedal would work OK if it has a convenient hand-operated release.

It's interesting that you and the Roadfly mailers find a difference between the 3 and 5 pedal location and setup. Because there is none (between the e46 and e39) the E60 is different from the E46, but the E90 will be exactly the same as the E60). Good ahead, check it out. Put one car right next to the other and check out location, center and disparity between pedal edge distances and you will find that BMW uses the exact same pedal setup between the two cars. It wasn't like this before, but starting with the E39/E46 BMW used the same series of measurements between each car's pedal setup.

Really, don't take my word for it. Take the time and check out the two cars side by side. I imagine it will surprise you.

Not for me, never has been, and not for any magazine I have ever read (not that I have great respect for magazines but I imagine they are as reliable as Roadfly when it comes to supporting cites). The entire E39 line-up was renowned for the throttle tip-in and the control it allowed. Neither of my e39's behaved anything at all similar to your discription. In fact, I believe of all the things people complain about in the E60, the thing they most often miss, particularly American commentators and reporters, is that the throttle tip-in on the 545 has fallen far from the superb 540.

This is my single greatest disappointment with the new Hooydonk cars. BMW's famous, renowned throttle tip-in has for some reason been abandoned for muddled technology and computer mapping. I have been told it is even worse in the auto tranny cars because the mapping in the transmissions is equally muddled so you get 2x's the issue.

It is an opinion issue between you and me. Comments on Roadfly don't supercede my own experience of 7 years with E39's. The throttle control is splendid and the pedal setup superb. There's just no way around that other than the individual physical parameters of the human driving the car.

I don't think you would disagree that the 3er has always been more lively to drive than the 5er. If you dig a bit you will also find the E36 to be a better driver's car than the E46. The E46 is widely considered as somewhat of a disappointment - too heavy and bloated with electronics.

I used to own an E30 and the difference in handling and ease of use between it and the E39 was incredible. However, the E30 was not as comfortable on long trips and I needed a car that can do regular 5 or 6 hour drives without causing any fatigue.

Some of your comments about the E39 and the 540 appear contrary to general opinions and my own experience. The I-6 versions of the E39 are way easier to drive and much more of a driver's car. The 540 has shortcomings with its clutch, throttle and steering. Still, I like the

540 better because it's more effortless on the highway and more of a challenge when I feel like playing. Have you heard of an item called the CDV?

I've only tested a Steptronic 545 so I can't make a direct comparison but if you think the tip-in of the 540i is great you should try the tip-in of the 6-speed E60 530i. It is astounding by comparison. In any case, I was not referring to tip-in in my earlier post. I was referring to blipping the engine to rev-match when exiting a corner. Since the car is in motion and the engine is already at speed, the electronic throttle does not behave in the same way as when you are at rest or under different conditions.

I do not like electronic throttles. The mechanical throttle of my E30 was immediate and always responded in exact doses to input - heel-&-toe rev-matching was a joy and a snap. The only downside was the twin-mass flywheel. BMW did not always use a twin-mass flywheel? I also had that.

I am not trying to disprove your own success with your BMWs but I am just pointing out that other people have problems with the E39, especially the 540 clutch and throttle. The tips on pedal placement from the pros is just what it is - good advice on how to set up the pedals for heel-&-toe. Whether it is relevant to you depends on how those suggestions match the pedal placement in your cars.

Well, yes, since it took so short a distance to actually hit the other car. If I didn't roll more than 3 inches, then the car must have been closer than

3 inches. The fact that this needs explaining is interesting ...

Cost down? Ease of use? Any number of other reasons.

You are full of shit. I have no self-esteem issues, and both of my kids can drive just fine. They began driving at the tender age of 12 when I bought my Jeep.

I said that. Yo said something that I took to mean that I drove an automatic, when I went back and reviewed, I noticed you didn't say that at all. Your point was the weight and power, not the transmission. But nevermind ...

Except that the same guy that used the handbrake to start on a hill also used the clutch at freeway speeds because he feared that not using it would stall the engine. He was not very good with his clutch, AND he used the hand brake for hill starts. Given his inability to understand exactly how and when the engine would stall, his use of the hand brake at a time when I have never used it only tells me that this is not a common practice.

Precisely my point.

Come on Jeff, that couldn't be the reason. It has to be because for more than 75 years no one in America was able to drive up a hill. And damn it, we wanted to drive up a hill just like the rest of the world!

Great!

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