Legal question

Any legal experts out there, or anyone with experience of buying an abandoned "barn find"?

The car in question is in a very poor state and has been abandoned for about 15 years. A notice was placed on it stating that rent was due on the storage and the owner could not be traced and if was not moved in 7 days...... Anyway, the landowner sold it and now I have the chance of buying it from the guy he sold it to.

But the bloke who left it in the field has since come forward and reckons the sale was illegal as the landowner DID know it was his car. Just what you need eh? So before I start work (it's still a wreck), I want to silence this tosser who is being very cute; he is not doing anything to get the car back but probably waiting for someone to restore it first!

Am I right in thinking that if this bloke has any claim at all, it is against the landowner and not the person who has the car? I don't want to run up a large Solicitor's bill so would I be better going to the police or just send him a registered letter telling him to put up or shut up?

Thanks in advance, Pete W

BTW I'll post details of the car once this is settled.

Reply to
Pete W.
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I would say this, if you refer to your own vehicle log book, it says that the licensed keeper is not necessarily the registered owner. Go down the post office and get the appropriate DVLA form to register the car in your name in the abscence of a current logbook. This you can do easily, the car will then be registered in your name through DVLA presuming that they have a record of the car on thier database, if the car was off the road prior to about 1985 it may not be and may need to be examined by a local DVLA inspector to prove identity.

This guy could claim that you are handling stolen goods, ie the landowner has stolen the car from him and passed it on etc etc.

However, he needs to prove that the car was stolen from him, but as the car has been stored on a property and rent is due, then it can be recognised that payment for overdue rent was met by the value of a wrecked car. Payment was taken in the car, the car then sold on to cover the landowners costs, a reasonable thing to do in the eyes of the law (im not an expert - but this has happened before).

Approach the landowner and see if he is happy to give a receipt for the car explaining this maybe? I once nearly bought a car in similiar circumstances, the car was excepted for payment for an overdue loan, the owner had no return. I would also advice that minimum work is done on the car until this is resolved, but would only take a month maybe...

Jono

Reply to
Jono Barspeed

Thanks for that. There is a V5 already and the registered keeper is the guy I am buying from. He aquired it from the DVLA but the claimant reckons HE has the original.

Pete

Reply to
Pete W.

The original V5 is superseded by a new one, because he has an old one doesnt mean he is the registered keeper, you will be, just have to prove that he has lost his rights to be the owner.

Jono

Reply to
Jono Barspeed

abandoned "barn find"?

the guy he sold

So before I start

cute; he is not

As I understand it, if you buy stolen goods, even in good faith, then you have no legal title to them when it becomes apparent that they are stolen - they remain the property of the original owner. You would have a claim against the person that sold them to you but would have no right to the goods themselves.

Now if the person renting the storage / barn had a formal lease, there is usually a clause that says any goods abandoned in the premises at the end of a tenancy may be disposed of, and another clause saying that if rent isn't paid for a certain period the lessor can terminate the lease if he wishes. In this case the lessor can claim title to the goods (your car) and dispose of them as he wishes.

If however is was a verbal agreement then you are in very murky waters, as although it is still a legal agreement, proving what the terms are is impossible when the parties dispute them.

Andrew Mawson

Reply to
Andrew Mawson

abandoned "barn find"?

from the guy he sold

eh? So before I start

very cute; he is not

Have a look at

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The legal principle is "nemo dat" - no-one can give good title to something they don't own, so the fact you bought it in good faith does not, of itself, give you good title. As for whether the landowner has good title - who knows? Different police forces deal with these things differently: at worst, they'll seize the vehicle and have it cut up; at best, they'll not give a damn, and leave you to sort it out through a civil action with the original owner and/or the landowner and the intermediary.

I'd keep well away unless and until the intermediary can provide you with a receipt from the original owner, or you'll be forever looking over your shoulder. Now the original owner's woken up, his options for trouble-making are vast.

Reply to
Autolycus

It doesn't matter, the V5 is not proof of ownership.

I wouldn't touch the vehicle, and certainly not start to restore it. If youw want it, you should negotiate with the owner, not the landowner. There are two separate cases here. Firstly when it comes to the vehicle the person to buy it from is the owner. If you pay anyone else, they will be defrauding two people, the owner and the buyer.

Secondly the landowner may well have a case against the owner. That is they will be owned money for storage of the vehicle. This is for them to pursue with the owner, not for you.

Reply to
Steve Firth

This should be a Civil matter and the police shouldn't want to know unless an allegation of theft is made. Even then I doubt most police forces would pursue it. If you end up in Court it'll be before Magistrates - it's a weird legal anomaly and not a good are of law to play with - I have first hand experience of it through working for an insurance company recovering property we had paid out for that was subsequently recovered in the hands of an "innocent" purchaser. The purchaser's story was not accepted by the Mags and we got our kit back - not a car but the principle is the same. One thing worth noting is that the costs involved in sorting all this out were not large but the time and hassle was - it was not worth it financially but there was a principle involved. I think financially we broke even, just. What you can do is render a reasonable storage fee for the vehicle, if it's been sat for many years then this fee will likely exceed any value in the remains unless of course it's some historically unique and mega bucks motor. The way I see it you have a few stages to go through if you really want this car - talk to the original owner and see if he can prove he owns the car. Now talk to the barn owner and see what the arrangement was. Now talk to the current owner, did he acquire title (i.e. ownership) of the car fully - i.e. did he buy it off someone who owned it? Now assess who you think owns it! At the end of the day unless this really is something special I would walk away, leaving your details with everyone and saying "when you have sorted it all out call me"

Reply to
J

Unless the Police do get involved & it ends up as a criminal matter, it WILL be treated as a Civil matter & it will go before a District Judge at a county court, not a Magistrate. The standard of proof required in a civil matter is the 'balance of probability', a lesser requirement than the 'beyond reasonable doubt' required in criminal matters.

You are entering a potential minefield. I had a similar experience, some of which might be helpful for your fun & games! I bought a classic car from a reputable dealer. They, in turn had bought it in good faith from a thief who was stealing & ringing classic cars.

I carried out some work & improvements to the car then, after about 4 months, the Police turned up! As I'd bought in good faith, they let me keep it, until it was needed for evidenciary purposes. Then the fun REALLY started!

The Police were able to confirm it's original identity & who had legal title to it, (an insurance company who'd paid out on a claim). I was able to show that I retained legal title to the repair work & improvements. (Might help you if you HAVE carried out restoration to the car!)

So the Police couldn't & wouldn't release it to the Insurance company. Likewise, they wouldn't release it back to me!!

It ended up with me getting my money back from the dealer & me 'buying' the insurance companies interest in the car, with a BIG discount to reflect the work I'd done & the fact that the newly identified car was registered as stolen/recovered. I gave the ins co. the option of paying me to remove my property from the vehicle & paying me for my time, I was backed up with a half decent solicitor, so they just caved in...

In your case, if the landowner can show that he took reasonable steps to contact & inform the rent defaulter that he intended to sieze his goods in leiu of rent, then he can obtain clear title to the car on the grounds that it was abandoned on his property. He can then sell it to you.

Unfortunatly, if it came to court, a Judge is unlikely to accept that putting a note on the car giving 7 days notice is a fair and reasonable attempt to contact the defaulter. It is usual to send letters by registered post to the last known address of the defaulter giving notice of his intentions & to place and advert in a local paper giving similar notice.

One final thought, if the 'owner' is unable to pay rent, is he likely to be able to afford to take legal action to recover 'his' property? You could try telling him to go forth & multiply....!

Reply to
TF

It appears that all has been reasonably covered in the above replies. I have some knowledge of these matter. The most important point is that if you obtain it under the circumstances you outline, you will NEVER have proper title to it (Title being a legal term here!) The original owner will always have title to the vehicle until he decides otherwise. (Whether the landowner - or anyone else has a dispute re. storage fees is of no consequence to you in seeking ownership; indeed that is another area entirely.) Suggest you steer clear.

Finally I have to ask in light of your obvious eagerness to possess this vehicle - What is it, I'm fascinated :-)

Regards Gee

Reply to
T.Gee

Some good points been made here, the main one's being that:

a) this is a civil matter, and hence can only be decided by the parties concerned or the courts.

b) legal ownership does appear to remain with the original owner.

A fair overview would be to say that this bloke has a beef with the farmer/landowner, not you. He doesn't especially want the car but he's damned if he'll let the farmer snatch it. OTOH he accepts he owes him rent but doesn't want to pay. I'd suspect he would welcome the opportunity to conclude this affair were he offered some incentive.

In my experience such matters are best settled by negotiation rather than antagonism. I'd suggest you contact the original owner in friendly and sympathetic terms. Apologise for the mix up, explain your position and ask how much he'd accept to sign legal ownership to yourself. It could be surprising little. If the figure is reasonable make him an offer and barter for the best price. The word "cash" would work well at this point, but get a full receipt.

Otherwise you should attempt to recover your money from the farmer and walk away.

riccip

Reply to
riccip

Spot on, and there may be other factors involved too which can't be written down. I suspect there were other business dealings going in the early 90's probably for cash, and it may be defaults on these dealings which are behind the sale.

Apart from all that, the guy has documentation and a few useful spares. I have already offered him a price for the spares but he's gone quiet on me. Still waiting......... Pete

Reply to
Pete W.

I have considered it, but it is the last resort as things would get nasty. But I wonder how the courts would look on the fact that the original owner has allowed the present "owner" to keep it for 8 years without attempting to recover it?

Pete

Reply to
Pete W.

If he's done nothing for 8 years he'd probably get laughed out of court!!

Why not get the landlord to write to the 'owner', stating that he intends to sue for 8 years back rent. Get the landlord to give the 'owner' the option of formally surrendering title to the landlord in leiu of rent.

(i.e. a receipt in which the 'owner' sells the Bugatti-Royale/Wartburg-Knight??! to the landlord for 1p!)

Go on, what type of car is it??!

Reply to
TF

Can I ask is there something special about the car.? If not get a car book and find another to do up. You will be surprised how many out there in need of restoration. Save yourself all the worry. Pat.

abandoned "barn find"?

the guy he sold

So before I start

cute; he is not

Reply to
Pat

I think that is what may happen.

Don't get too excited over what car it is. I am not trying to wind anyone up here but I have genuine reasons for not letting on. Firstly I don't want the discussion to be affected by prejudice or the car's perceived value; I think it is a subject worthy of discussion for all our sakes, you never know when it may happen to you. And of course, I don't want anyone who may know the people involved to shove a spanner in the works either. I asked the original question because I wanted a discussion on the legal status, not comments on whether it is worth the effort or not. It's not worth the effort. It will cost more to get it back on the road than it will be worth, does that sound familiar to anyone on this NG, like everybody! :-) But I will get quite a few years enjoying my favourite pastime.

Pete

Reply to
Pete W.

Possession is nine tenths of the law!

Reply to
Jono Barspeed

Posting upside down and not trimming a single word is nine tenths bad manners.

Reply to
Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)

The message from "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" contains these words:

And the point is probably wrong anyway. ISTR that the correct quote is 'possession is nine points of the law' and the law in question had 12 points, not 10. OTOH my source could be wrong. Lawyers are devious beasts at the best of times which is probably why so many of them end up as politicians.

Reply to
Roger

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