Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

Don't get me started. I've seen whole CASES of filtes that were not threaded. I've seen filtes that were not completely painted. I've seen cases of filters wirhout base gaskets.

Were they designed that way???? Certainly not - but they were BUILT AND SHIPPED that way. Yet there are guys on this list who claim it is impossible for a company to supply defective oil filters to the market.

QUALITY CONTROL is the name of the game. Some have it. Some don't.

I most sincerely doubt it.

Which is no doubt why you've, multiple times no less, erroneously characterized his position as being along the lines of "Frams are the bestest filters ever".

Yet another perfect, textbook example of a steaming pile of horseshit.

Even I agree Fram filters are not the worst quality filters. There are some others that are far worse (IMO).

Well I don't agree with this. I don't think the Thailand made Toyota aftermarket filter for the RAV4 4 cylinder is a particularly good filter. It is not a bad filter, but there are other filters I like better (including the OE style Toyota Filter that came on the vehicle). I have a case of the Thailand made Toyota filters, and don't plan to throw them away, but when I order replacements, I am going to make sure I get the OE style Japanese made Toyota filters. If those aren't available, I'll probably switch the RAV4s over to the Purolator PureOne filter.

Ed

May be that is what Toyota does but the US auto makers insist on doing failure analysis.

Well I read it at the beginning of the thread and that was a long tome ago but from memory Honda, Subaru and Mack trucks have their filters made by Fram.

OK the story had no purpose. Got it.

The valve is not in the filter, the valve is in the standpipe to which the filter attaches.

Yes I know that. And IIRC that engine would start out with very little clatter when it was cold and the valves clatter would be louder when it warmed up. And there never was any problem with Fram filters and those engines. So where did that myth come from and why were you previously help promote that myth?

I don't think any one can read something that is not written. When did you ever mention a Chrysler New Yorker before now?

-jim

Ford didn't take my engine back for analysis when they changed it. It went into the scrap bucket after the"road man" verified it had, in fact, been replaced. A lot of Chrysler engines were scrapped before they decided they had a sludge/coking problem that needed to be addressed - after which they took several hundred back for inspection

In some engines the backflow prevention, or anti-drainback valve is located there - but virtually no pressure is required to open it

Several days ago I mentioned the cold start clatter on the New Yorker. (3.0 Mitsubishi)

You see the same kind of claims by corporations that are as clueless as Jim. Just look at the Amsoil warranty claims. Even though there are specific reasons why most Amsoil products cannot be API certified, and these reasons can have negative effects you get the song and dance about how no one has ever shown that a failure was related to the oil, as if that constitutes proof of anything.

Premature engine failure, of engines already out of warranty, are the key problem with using inferior quality filters. The engine fails at

150K miles rather than 300K miles because of a faulty anti-drainback valve and there's no teardown of the engine to figure out why it failed.

Well I didn't know much about amsoil but something smelled very fishy in your story so a quick trip to their web site at amsoil.com and and look at their 5w30 oil and it claims to have API certification. It also has ILSAC 4 certification. Then i took a trip to the API webpage and sure enough Amsoil Inc. is listed in their licensee directory.

So where are you getting your misinformation?

Except that is complete bullshit that you created by pulling it out of your clueless ass. I have tested the anti-drainback valves on Fram filters and they do not fail as the mythology claims they do. I have never heard of any of the internet story tellers who have actually ever tested the valve on a single filter. Not one person that is passing on this folklore has checked one single valve.

I have checked them on filters after they were used using the dirty oil and have never found one that didn't work. The people who claim they are likely to leak don't have a clue. They are just idiots. If you cut the filter open, then the valve as well as the rest of the filter will no longer function properly. The very definition of a retard is someone who cuts a filter open to see if the anti drain back valve works.

If you want your engine to last 500K miles just buy the cheapest oil and filter and change the oil every 3000 miles. If you are really concerned about keeping dirt from harming your engine it makes very little sense to concoct an elaborate and expensive scheme for storing dirt inside your engines lubricating system. That is not a fail safe method of dealing with engine dirt. It makes much more sense to let your neighborhood recycling center take the dirt rather than trying to store it inside your engine. Removing the dirt from the engine is a completely safe way to prevent the dirt from harming your engine. Attempting to store the dirt in your oil and filter does not always work as effectively. By simply complicating the process you have increased the chance that it will fail. That said there really is no need to try to make your engine last 500K miles. There are very few people willing to do what it takes to make the rest of the car last anywhere near that long. If you use any approved oil and filter and change at the recommended intervals there is very little chance that the engine will crap out due to a lubricant problem before the rest of the car is shot.

-jim

That statement, read in conjunction with the first sentence of that paragraph says it all....

Pure voodoo there. Talk about espousing a premise that can't be proved.

--Vic

You need to look at the big picture, and what causes engine failures. Lack of lubrication at start-up is a big factor in an engine not lasting several hundred thousand miles, and the anti-drainback valve is a key factor.

It's a real cop out for these companies to use "well no one has ever had a failure under warranty so our products must be wonderful" premise.

For Amsoil, it's not the engine that is affected by their non-API certified oils, it's the catalytic converter. They can't get API certification because the level of ZDDP is too high. This is why they reluctantly began marketing their XL-7500 line, then they cheapened it by making it with non-synthetic base stock, but at least it has a level of ZDDP low enough to be API certified.

The problems with Fram filters go far beyond the few catastrophic failures you read about, it's the long term effect of using them that you have to be concerned about.

Fram is surviving on good marketing and good distribution. You get poorer filtering (with pretty low surface area) and poorer construction. Since the surface area is less than that of good filters you're more likely to have the bypass valve open. Of course this is just on the lowest cost Fram filters. Some of their higher grade products are fine.

How are you checking them?

Here is what happened to me...

1997 Ford Expedition 5.4L V8. Cold morning (at least for NC). Started truck and got a horrible racket for a few seconds (seemed longer). Scared the crap out of me. I checked with a mechanic I trust and he told me that was a sign of a leakig anti-drain back valve. The Ford 5.4L engine uses oil pressure to tension the chains. If the anti-drain back valve leaks, the oil will leak back out of the system. On a cold morning this can extend the lenght of time it takes for oil pressure to build up and tension the chains. Loose chains rattle. The mechanic told me it was extremely important to use a filter with a silicone anti-drain back valve like the Motorcraft FL820S. I researched it further and it found that the commonly used nitrile anti-drain back valves do sometimes have problems with sealing. This is the type of anti-drain back valve in the Extra Guard Fram filter. Turns out in my case that was the type of filter on the truck when I had the problem. From then on I only used FL820S filters on that truck and never had the problem reoccur. To be fair, Fram does include silicone anti-drain back valves on their more expensive filters (like the Tough Guard).

the dirty oil

If you cut open the filter carefully and the anti-drain back valve is hard and/or deformed I think you can decide it is a poor design. From what I have seen the only difference between the Extra Guard and Tough Guard anti-drain back valve is the material (design/dimensions are identical). If nitrile is just as good as silicone, why would Fram note that as a reason that the Tought Guard filter is better and cost twice as much? For some engines, the anti-drain back valve is not particularly important. For others, it can be very important.

Ed

You change the filter yourself? How's the filter set on the 5.4? Horizontal, or somewhat bottom down? Do you fill the new filter with oil? If so, how much is retained while putting the filter on? Do you get the clatter on the start up after an oil change? Think about it. You should. Every time. Unless that clatter had absolutely nothing to do with the filter.

--Vic

All I've seen about that is anecdotes. Never heard a noise on my cars after an oil change, beyond lifters, which always bleed down on shut off anyway, and have nothing to do with the filter. And I put filters on dry except oiling the gasket. Not saying anti-drainback isn't a factor with some engines, just not with any I've had. All the filters have tipped downwards and only a small percentage of the oil could drain back anyway. One cold winter start is equal to probably 500 times any of this so-called anti-drainback bullshit - on my cars. Better make sure you use the right winter oil. Instead of worrying about filter myths. Of course I don't use Fram - sometimes superstition works out. Why take a chance? I don't walk under ladders either.

(Amsoil stuff snipped. Who uses Amsoil? That's crazy.)

If you can't prove it, it's no better than voodoo. Anyway, maybe the AC/Delcos, Purulators, etc I use are no better than the Frams. Just nobody is spreading myths about them. Hell if I know. And you don't either, unless you can cite a scientific and peer-reviewed study of current oil filters.

--Vic

I don't know what you mean by "these companies" but if the topic is still Fram, they meet the engine maker's specifications for each type of filter they make. That includes a working anti-drain back valve. SAE testing is credible evidence. Somebody cutting open a filter and inspecting the contents is not believable evidence.

You first made up a story about a company not having API certification. When that story turned out to be false you seemed to be trying to turn it into something else. I don't know anything about the Amsoil company other than they sell oil.

All the real evidence suggests the problems are mostly all in your head. I suspect those ideas got into your head from reading internet mythology.

And would this be knowledge you have acquired from internet folklore? From what I have read most of the filters that are put on car engines in the US today are Frams.

That is not what a company I have done some work for tells me. They make oil filter housings for both engine and hydraulic applications. They recommend Fram filters to their customers because they say that their testing show it does the best job of keeping oil clean. They rely on testing and not rumors like you do.

Like you have the slightest clue. The main reason they make the more expensive versions is probably because idiots like you are willing pay more for nothing.

-jim

Changing oil and filter at 3000 mile intervals addresses the dirt and oil quality problems, but does NOT address the dry-start / noisy valves on startup issues that faulty anti-drainback valves can cause.

Might not make the engine fail within the normal lifespan of the vehicle, but nobody who really cares about their car wants it rattling and clattering every time it starts up or they'd all drive deisels.

And vehicles with timing chains and hydraulic tensioners - particularly those with LONG chains like the old 2.6 Mitsubishi, eat timing chains and tensioners early in their life if they don't get adequate oil pressure very quickly on startup - EVERY TIME.

I believe they now have at least one line of oil that carries the API certification, but up 'till about 2 years ago NONE of their oils met the standard, or at least nione were certified. In the past, their oils did NOT meet spec, and today most still do not.

Now you are tha great test engineer. WOW!!!! I've been a mechanic since 1969, licenced since 1971, and have experienced obvious anti-drainback valve failure on numerous customer's vehicles. Many, although not all were Fram. I don't need to cut a filter apart or test it off the vehicle to know when one has failed (although I've likely changed many defective filters that I did NOT know were defective).

When an engine comes in clattering on startup and goes out quiet after an oil filter change, it's OBVIOUS the drainback balve is leaking.