About 2008 Dodge Avenger SE

No manual transmission? No thanks then. Autos take the fun out of driving a car.

Bob

And for some reason Dodge has forgotten that. Cars become cool when the cool people own them and sadly, most of the "cool" people will not even look if a standard shift is not available. Then there is also the thought that if the car is not available with a standard shift, then it really isn't much of a performance car and is just a wanna be, much like the Mustang II

Dodge has bigger problems. They need to convince the public that they are going to still be around in a few years now that corperate raiders own them. I would hate to see them go under but things do not look good unless its workers accepts some serious concessions and reduce labor costs to save capital to be used to help turn them around and keep them off the auction block. Daimler paid 500 million to unload them after that monies for sale were distributed and you do not spend that amount to unload something unless there is a lot more red ink in the pipeline and you are cutting your losses.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

That is true but the Avenger was never designed or marketed as a performance car. Not in the 90's version and not now. It's a sedan.

Even sports or performance cars today are sold over 80% autos. Only a few want manuals. How many Corvettes do you see with manuals? How many new Mustangs? Take a trip to your local drag strip and tell me how many funny cars, dragsters, and even performance bracket racers are manuals these days.

There just isn't enough public demand for manuals except on low end models or in trucks. I do see manuals often in small sporty coupes.

Yes and no. The plus of a srandard is less weight and maybe a couple of hp. Other than that the auto is more consistant and a heck of a lot easier in traffic. The auto in the SRT8 will light the tires on a 1st-2nd shift, so it shifts real firm. I guess with a low hp torque engine a standard might help it out some.

A car that is used for autoX ,sure you want a standard, but for day in day out use I'd rather the auto.

And it's just personal preference. I prefer the standard but I guess I'm out of luck with newer vehicles.

Bob

That is simply not true. Have you seen the commercial for it? The guy is testing a bunch of them banging thru gears with their autosticks and making them play that song and why would he be doing that unless they are trying to show this as a performance vehicle?

The problem is that few are the Jones and if they don't buy them, then the rest of the flock really doesn't either.

A hell of a lot more than automatics in the crowd that I hang with.

That is not the point. I am not arguing performance here, only perception and both the Mustang and the Vette are offered with standard shifts.

That is not as true as you might think and while the auto can in most cases outperform a standard in a flat out run, a standard can easily keep pace and outperform the auto in winding hilly runs where downshifting the auto will cook it after a while and it is a hell of a lot more fun and what is the real purpose of a sports car anyway but to have fun.

It is not performance that I am talking about here but image and then there is the cost reduction.

I agree but the standard shift is a hell of a lot more fun in sport driving situations and while you can make your auto do it to a degree as well, you will be beating the shit out of it while a 5 speed is not as greatly affected.

That Charger of yours is a true example of what I'm saying. It really is a kick ass car that can beat many "performance " cars but it doesn't sell worth shit. Why is that? Because it is a boxy 4 door with nothing available but an automatic and doesn't exactly ring the cool bell for many. When the new Challenger was shown to the corporate idiots they were against it because it would require modifications to the assembly lines until a higher exec with a brain (a rarity indeed) pointed out the dismal sales of the Charger and the soaring sales of the Mustang. If you want to sell cars, you have to give the people what they want, even if it is simply a choice that many will never take. Most of the best selling cars are offered with a standard shift, especially the sport and sport styled ones.

I agree with you but we are talking about sports cars here or at least the appearance of sports cars.

A dhifter similar to that is in the SRT. It shifts as quick as a standard.

I guess none of them drive a Z06.

Well partly because they don't make a whole lot of them. You don't often see them sitting too long at a dealer. Also there is a 2k gas guzzler tax on them.

Well, the boxy 4 door will hold it's own with anything in it's price range. High 12's low 13's are nothing to sneeze at. That's about where most vettes run. Other than the Z06.

If that's the case the only sports car is the vette or porsch.

"TBone" wrote in news:4679946b$0$12183$ snipped-for-privacy@roadrunner.com:

The current Avenger is a FWD weeniemobile. Nothing about it is a serious performance vehicle. To address your question, you're a victim of a successful marketing ploy.

Serious enthusiasts go for the sticks; most other people go for the autos. Except for base entry level weenieboxes, automatics are standard equipment whereas a stick is optional.

Most Corvette drivers nowadays aren't serious performance enthusiasts. They're older guys who just want to be seen in one.

And they're both offered with automatics too. Most dealers stock automatics because that's what sells the most.

Sticks are great on a course as you say, but the percentage of people that buy them for that reason is inconsequential to makers and dealers. The vast majority of buyers will go for an automatic because it fits their lifestyle.

"Roy" wrote in news:AbadnSPqOtMcOeTbnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

The Hemi Charger _is_ a performance car. The SRT8 is even moreso.

Don't know where you live, but they're extremely popular around here. Tons of 'em on the road.

Gotta wonder where you live. I've never heard of a Hemi Charger not being "cool".

Not too many cars can touch a Hemi Charger right out of the box, especially in the price range. The SRT8 is simply awesome.

That's nonsense. Autos are the big sellers as far as volume.

Corvettes and Porsches are certainly sports cars, but then you have a whole different thing when you talk about cars like Miatas, Skys, Solstices, etc. I don't consider them true sports cars, but some do...

the Mazda Miata is a roadster not to be confused with a sports car. its made to be nimble and handle well. it cant run down a vette or even a low end v6 stang. but what it can do is out handle them hands down. when the high horse power cars have to slow around the corner the Miata will just cruise around it like its not there. they are fun little cars to drive, but damn hard to get out of.

Thats just a commercial. Mitsubishi does has a commercial that kinda implies the Lancer is a sports car. It's nothing of the sort. To me they're marketed as inexpensive sporty 'looking' fun cars to drive. A

Thats your crowd. The vast majority of Vettes and Mustangs sold the past few decades are automatics.

Thats true but its a small market share. Most of both those models are sold as automatics.

It only cooks an auto if an idiot keeps it in drive in hilly areas.

I never said that it was but the commercial indicates that it is. IF it came with a 5 or 6 speed, sales would increase.

They are sold that way because that is what most of the dealerships order because since anyone can drive them, they are easier to sell and I don't recall ever saying that standard shift was more popular, only that sport and performance cars need to have it available for them to be taken seriously.

Once again Miles, you can't see the forest thru the trees.

You really don't seem to know a hell of a lot about cars if you believe that.

And you don't have a complete understanding of the thread. I never said that it was, only that DC is trying to market it as such and I didn't fall for anything.

Actually, the automatic is almost always the option and at extra cost. The dealerships carry mostly automatics because they are easier to sell. The point is that the enthusiasts in many cases are the driving force behind sales, especially with performance oriented vehicles and if they don't look, neither does anyone else.

That sounds like you don't like Chevy. Either way, they are still offered with standard shifts, just like the Mustang.

You are just unable to see the point. These cars sell because they are thought of as cool to own and that is in some ways because the enthusiasts buy them first but if they ignore it.....

While true to a point, they still buy what they perceive as cool and if the car is ignored by the cool people.....

That's because the dealers don't order a whole bunch of them. The dealer by me had one for months but that was a while ago. They are selling faster now that people know how fast they are but they are still far from flying off of the floor and DC is still dissapointed with the sales numbers.

I never said that it was slow. In fact, I do recall calling it a kick ass car but is is still a boxy 4 door.

I don't understand.

Then it sounds like where you live is the exception. I see them on the road here as well but I see a lot more Mustangs, hell, I see a lot more Superduty's then Chargers.

That is more of a personal opinion but I don't recall it getting any specail attention for its stunning looks.

LOL, what you just said is nonsence. Where did I say that standard shifts were the big seller as far as volume goes. What I said was that the bigger selling vehicles were offered with standard shifts, not that the standard shifts versions outsold the auto's. Learn how to read.

They are not sports cars, they are roadsters and while they could not touch the Charger or Mustang in a flat out run, they can out handle them with ease.