Hybrids Gas Mileage in the real world...INTERESTING !

"TBone" wrote in news:v0W4e.22586$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.southeast.rr.com:

Nonsense - it's exactly the opposite. Advertised mileage is almost always fiction. For many people, the way those cars were driven are considered normal driving.

Just like hybrids will get less than half their advertised mileage when they're driven under real world (i.e., horrible) conditions.

It's very simple - hybrids driven normally in the real world don't get anywhere near their advertised mileage.

For the few who complained, I suspect that to be true but once again, they were not driving them the way they were intended to be driven. The example that you gave also had the defroster on all of the time which was a worst case condition for that type of vehicle. I think that I used my defroster about 20 times since I bought it in 97 and I lived in NJ for most of that time so the constant use of the defroster is not a common thing. If you also want to try and drive it like a sports car then the mileage will be significantly reduced but they are not sports cars.

And what is the advertized mileage of your Vette? The simple fact is that they are capable of significant mileage if you drive them that way and even though that cannot be done all of the time, they will still ALWAYS do better than your Vette under similar situations.

And your proof of this is where and exactly what is your definition of normal?

OK so lets do some calculating. I drive a car or truck about 9,000 miles a year. My current vehicles get 12 MPG average so I use 750 gallons of gas a year at $2 per gal that is $1500. All my vehicles are paid for so no payment to make plus they are older so license and insurance are relatively low also repairs which I can do are very cheap.

So now if I buy one of these new vehicles that get 60 MPG I would use

We could work this backwards to find out at what price gas will have to get to before I would be equal to the new car payment.

Now if I was driving 90,000 a year I am sure I would be rushing to a dealer to buy one.

Ron

TB>

What I read said the cars were long term test vehicles...driven during the summer and into the winter...driven normally as you or I may drive...Nowhere did it indicate they were driven in any abnormal way.. The point of the article was that if the driver needed to use the cars defroster or heater or god forbid the air conditioner (things I know at least I "want" to use when required for both saftey and comfort...the fuel effeciency went down the tubes...

Honestly IF I were in the market for a new vehicle I would consider buying a hybird but It would be stupid financially to buy one purely to save money on fuel...

Bob Griffiths

========= No arguemnt on them not being sports cars...But I live in Maryland and to be honest my heater is on almost all winter...and my defroster is used almost every morning... In the summer I can and normally do drive without the air conditioner..... But many people use it all the time during the summer...

I do not know...What I can tell you is that I own 5 Corvettes and a BB Chevelle ( I am in the car hobby)...and have a computer in each garage into which I record every nut, bolt, drop of oil, gallon of gasoline, etc for each of my cars.... The overall average MPG on that Corvette is 24.2 mpg over the entire 69,923 miles I have driven it since new... I will admit that I do not race around town in the car and generally have a fairly light foot... The Chevelle is another story... but I use it differently ...very differently...usually 1./4 mile at a time...

Enjoy

Bob Griffiths

Agreed. The savings is nice, but not enough to pay for the increase in cost over the same model with a 100% gas driven drivetrain, unless you are driving a good distance. In fact, I drive about 140 miles per day ... and even at that, the ROI for a hybrid Civic is negligible.

I'm still going to buy a hybrid or other alternative energy vehicle within the next 3 years ... but the thing driving that decision is not saving money ... it's to support the technology that will free us from the grip of the Arabs and improve the environment ...

No offense, but the change to alternative energies is not about $$$, it's about doing the RIGHT thing.

Craig C.

One argument I encounter a lot when I mention to gassers that I want a Diesel is "ohh, its hard to find diesel" apparently, they never actually look for it. However, they have a point, there are about half as many Diesel stations then gas station around here (that means I only have about 50 diesel stations in a ten mile radius) If they want something to replace gas they need the infrastructure to back it. You can buy gas on just about every corner, but where do you fill with natural gas, or hydrogen? If the government mandated that every gas station was to carry hydrogen and natural gas, then people might be a little more open to the idea.

I am looking forward to seeing $4/gallon gas prices! I want to see all those escalade owners and H2 owners and all those kids that were given a Ford F250 v10 for graduating highschool to spend $120 each time they fill! and it will just cost me $20 to fill my motorcycle!

Something that would work well for me is an electric car with a solar panel roof. it would spend just about its entire life outside, and most of the time, parked. Leave it outside for nine hours while I'm at work, and its fully charged for the drive home! never have to fill it, never have to plug it in! If only they were not so UGLY!!

Doing nothing is still a desision, and is just as costly.

The demand may still rise, but if we get away from it, then not only will that lower the global demand (at least for a little while), but it will allow the US market to spend that money elsewhere. and let the rest of the world deal with the oil shortage.

I would have to completely agree! come on now, really, can you put a price on the cost of popularity?? Geez, I wouldn't be caught dead riding on last season's wheels! ;-) I wonder, is there a three month lease program?? then I can ALWAYS have something new and trendy!

I have seen five year old trucks for sale with over 400k miles on them.

I know quite a few people that commute over 60 miles each way for work. That comes out to over 31k miles a year in JUST commuting to work. Its not just the fuel economy though, its the size of the vehicles. One full size consumes just about as much space as two economy cars. If we got rid of the unnecessary big SUVs and trucks, then traffic would not be as bad ether.. and with better traffic comes a higher average speed, approaching closer to a more efficient speed for the engine. allowing the engine to operate in its more efficient range AND less time is spent sitting in traffic. Less traffic, less stress, less road rage, lower blood pressure and less medication due to stress induced ailments. something else to think about 2000-3000 pounds of steel and aluminum. compared to 5000-7000 pounds of steel and aluminum. Not only would our dependence on foreign oil go down, but our need for steel and aluminum (as well as the needed energy to manipulate that raw materials) will go down. lowering the price of the raw materials associated with building the cars. Smaller tires, less rubber. less glass, less plastic. All materials that we ether produce or import, but what if our consumption was less then our production? then we could export these materials and actually bring some money into this country!

A friend at work has a daily driven Corvette (C6?? not the brand new one, I think its a 2003) she says that with her lead foot, she gets about 19 in the city, and about 30 on her road trips (usually with a lot of triple digit cruising in there) When the car weighs nothing, and has a very low RPM engine traveling at a high speed, it all adds up.

I don't really see it as a "right thing" or "wrong thing" except of course in political terms.

Is it really more "right" burning, say hydrogen, or using electricity via batteries with their own manufacture complications as well as recharge demands?

Seems we're simply exchanging one set of positives/negatives of an energy source with another.

I like "gasahol". My truck seems to like it too. And the idea I might be helping out some American corn grower has its attractions too. But of course its an energy net loss IIRC in the grand scheme of things.

I look forward to the maturation of alternative energies in propelling me about town or keeping me warm during winter, but I don't think there's going to be any great financial or even political liberation coming out of it. Just means some other energy producer instead of Exxon will have their hands in my pocket!

SMH

no, it will still be Exxon. Instead of buying Exxon gas, you be buying Exxon hydrogen. Energy companies will always adapt to keep your money flowing their way.

"TBone" wrote in news:0L05e.22013$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.southeast.rr.com:

And what is that? You buy a car and you drive it however you drive it. Obviously, if you drive as efficiently as possile, you'll get better mileage than if you race from stoplight to stoplight.

I used to live in NJ years ago, and you always drove with the defroster on in the morning simply because of the humidity. Now I live in Florida, and everybody always drives with the A/C on 24/7/365. I suspect it's the same from here through Texas and beyond.

The point is that a _lot_ of people use the defroster and a/c a lot more than you might think. That's "normal" driving.

The Corvette is someone else's.

Exactly like the hybrids, and every other vehicle on the road.

My "proof" is what most people are experiencing right now. "Normal" is how most people drive. Most people do not drive the way advertised (i.e., maximum) mileage is achieved. That's not "normal".

The next time you go out on the road, observe how most people drive. They're not driving at a steady 45 on a flat, smooth road with no defroster or a/c on and the windows all rolled up. They're speeding up, slowing down, turning, going up and down hills, using their accessories, etc. That's "normal".

I forget which mag I was browsing at the barbershop yesterday, but the

• next to the 52 mpg figure for the Prius city driving said "* constant 20 mph". More realistic figures would probably be attained by stopping and then accelerating to 30-35 mph every 1/4 mile.

Who drives at a constant 20MPH? around here, its 0-50-0 wait for two minutes idling- 50-0 wait for two minutes.... Same thing with the 55 freeway during rush hour. it will vary from 0 to 80 back to 0 again. If you leave any kind of cushion, even just one carlength, so you can kind of just coast when the car stops, then goes again to smooth out your speed. Someone will cut you off and there goes your cushion. There are just too many cars. Get rid of about 15% of the cars on the freeway (ether by carpool, mass transit, or telecommuting) and the traffic would be a lot better. Get the traffic to move at a steady pace, and everyone's fuel economy will improve. Fewer cars on the road PLUS the improved economy of the cars on the road equates to less fuel burned, less money spent on fuel, and less smog.

Hmm, I wonder.. do you think its a "too many cars" thing? or a "too many stupid drivers" thing? Here is SoCal its legal for motorcycles to split traffic. So when traffic gets bad, I split the lanes on my motorcycle. I will be splitting along, then all the sudden, I will pass a car in the middle lane that is doing 45 MPH and everyone is trying to get around them.. after I pass that one "lead slow car" its smooth sailing at 85+. They don't even realize they have two miles of cars backed up behind them.

As for on the street with traffic lights. They are getting smarter, but they are still pretty darn dumb. I have spent a countless collective hours waiting at a vacant traffic signal, waiting for the light to turn green for me. I have sat there for as long as ten minutes before, yeah TEN minutes. without a single car go though the green. I also love it when one light turns green, and you see the next light, about 100 yards up just turn yellow for you. then after coming to a full stop, it turns green, and you see the next light 100 yards up turn yellow and you roll up and stop just in time to go again.

Timing, my man, Timing. ;-(

TBone wrote: [snip]

With money, connections, and political pressure in the right places. (Like the White House.) In other words: Business as usual.

AP

If you don't think small cars offer enough horsepower then you haven't been looking at the right small cars. Looked at import tuners lately? A Toyota Supra with the appropriate bolt on kit can put 1000 HP under your right foot. Is that enough? A cousin of mine has a Lexus sports car with 300hp under the hood right off the lot. Its performance is somewhere between crazy and insane.

With the hybrids, when that electric motor kicks in the accelleration can be neck snapping. Electric motors have a property called "locked rotor torque", which is the torque applied with the rotor held still. It's the highest torque the motor can pull, and it's available right off the line. When a hybrid comes off the line all of the electric motor's torque is available instantly, which is one of the reasons they have reasonably good acceleration off the line even with their heavy load of batteries.

Hmm... Do you have a source for that?

One thing I recall reading about China is that they're the largest emerging market for cars in the world, and all of the manufacturers are climbing over each other to get sales rights over there.

Indeed, that is a good question. I think how much depends on the greed of the oil companies and the patience of consumers.

AP