I don't know if you guys are following the Army body armor thing?
Basically, the grunts parents are trying to buy better or different body armor
for their kids, and the Army keeps changing it's mind (big improvement since the
60's, the Army has a mind now), about whether to allow this, or maybe reimburse
I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around this one and wanted to see
what your opinions were...
I'm sort of split... I want to see our troops protected as much as possible....
I also realize that the Army has to be uniform/standardized/whatever...
Military discipline and individual style and weapons sort of went out with the
Were we just too dumb to get something better than flak jackets, or is it that
the volunteer Army is looser and the media coverage closer?
I remember how much we hated giving up our m-14's for the crappy (then) m-16...
If we didn't like it, why didn't we go buy something better??
I'm really on the fence on this... not sure which way to jump...
Having a kid in the Army and knowing that Pinnacle Armor, maker of Dragon Skin,
is a few miles from here really whack the military discipline and standard thing
I was reading one article that say's the grunts aren't wearing the b/a
because of the weight, slow's them down. I can see that as a problem.
I'm with ya bro, whatever it takes.
FTA and the standard/ uniform.
Bro, we never used the flak jacket. We ditched that for more ammo. Dumped
the helmet for the boonie as well. I see our foks as carrying way too much
crap. Light and fast was the way to go. Now, it looks like they are carrying
everything sam issued. Give me some water and all the ammo I can carry, if
it get's too heavy I'll use some of it. Sorry, ran out once.
Stole a 12 pump from the mp's. Worked real well.
Bro, it is all about keeping him all in one piece, that is all that is
about. Were it me, I'd send him all the stuff that would help. don't ask
don't tell. Get him a piece to stick in his boot too, never can tell when he
might need it. What are they going to do if sombody say's somthing? I doubt
there would be a problem. If so, maybe a Article 15? It blows my mind the
army can't get it right but they yell about unauthorized equipment, weapons
yeah, I saw a few interviews that the guys said the same thing... but this
"dragon skin" is supposed to be lighter and more flexible...
Well, I can see the need for standardization of some things, like the weapons..
I think we were in a different type of fight, but I see what you mean... the
only time we wore flak jackets was when we were in base camp on guard duty and
an officer might raise hell...
Most of the guys over there are riding or patrolling street... I guess they need
night vision, gloves, goggles, etc... CAL OSHA??
But then, that's why they drafted kids instead of ol' farts... I can see some
poor NCO saying "let's go" and everyone getting out their cells phones and
discussing it first.. *g*
yeah, we did a bit of that.. I dumped that POS .45 in a hurry and bought a .38
from an AF guy...
But that was against regs, we just took the chance... not sure if it applies
That's where I'm kind of stuck... I can see the extra weapon shit... the guys
coming back say that it's easy to buy anything you want over there, mostly knock
offs made in Pakistan..
It's the armor that I'm hung up on... If it works, give it to everyone, if it
isn't as good as the issued stuff, get the issued stuff to everyone..
Bro, stop and think about it for a second. We are talking about a government
that wanted to put our troops into the bradly that was a friggin' bomb. They
gave us a AR that at first caused the deaths of a number of troops.
I have no confidence in them getting the "best" for them and the "best "is
what they should have.
What are the independents wearing? What about the Blackwater folks? They are
supposed to be one of the better groups. Doubtful the independents are
skimping on their stuff.
he had a choice of Korea again or Iraq... and went to Korea..
we told him that if he chose Iraq, WE might kill him.. *g*
I know what you mean, though and will pass it on... he's gonna be in for 20 if
we have any choice..
Thanks, Larry, but since Mac asked, in respect for his service to the USA, I
wish his permission.
You know, it's the Army Sergeant thing we had drilled into us. "Respect the
rank always, but respect the person more if he deserves it".
"azwiley1" < firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote in message
I appreciate your asking, Budd.. but not only don't I own the NG, I'd really
like to hear anyone that has an opinion..
Thanks, my friend. I apprecite the chance to speak.
IMHO, all our troops and police need the best available and they need
Too much politicking and cost cutting wastes lives in more ways than
just the military, but the military is the situation you expect to see
lives lost. The police need better armor and weapons to avoid another
SoCal shootout, for example.
What can be done? Cut waste in government spending and redirect that
money to R&D for the military and police forces. Give them, right now,
the best available.
What would I like to see? Read the book, Robert Heinlein's "Starship
Troopers". (the movie screwed the story up royally) Strength
augmenting, self-sufficient, impervious full coverage body armor with
built in recoiless launchers of incendiary, HE rounds and HUD sighting
for built in machine guns (flight capability optional ).
Yes, it's far fetched, but, given today's technology (carbon fiber,
deep sea suit joints, rebreathers, powered artificial limbs, is it all
that far fetched in reality???
mac davis wrote:
My problem with that is where does it stop?
We get those suits.... They get those suits... We develop better armor piercing
Back to the old bigger sword, bigger shield thing...
It is an EXCELLENT book, totaly distorted in the movie... it made me
think things differently...I wish I had read it BEFORE I served my 2
years in the army...
Only objection I would have against exosceletons (which by the way ARE
under consideration and some prototypes tested IIRC in Japan of all
places) is the power requirement: If something goes bad to the power,
then the soldier would either be immobilised or forced to ditch the
suit and move totally "naked" in a battlefield designed and fought with
"armor" in mind.
If US of A army works the way the Greek army was the time I served
('83-85) then who cares what the "issue" items are? If you find it
better in aftermarket AND you don't get in trouble using it-wearing it
then by all means, use the best...
If my daughter was to enlist (highly unlikely as it is) I would go as
far as I could in order to give her the advantage... The Army anyway
does not consider people as people but as assets in combat
Part of my point... right now, you CAN get in trouble for wearing non-issue..
Then again, like we used to say when deciding if something was worth the chance
of getting caught, what were they going to do to us, send us to Nam?
Maybe even back to the world for a court martial?
Oh, please don't throw me into that brian patch.. lol
First, I could give a flying F^&* about the "Army" anymore, after all the
shit I went through. HOWEVER, our troops survival is a totally different
The Interceptor Ballistic Armor that they WERE issuing was not too bad,
though it is very bulky and does make doing something's cumbersome. I am
sure there is something like cumbersome and able to protect better out
there. The problem is the damn politicians and the entire political game
that has to be played. Get rid of that and they might actually get what
yeah, Larry... that's always the problem...
Most stuff that they get is chosen by who has the most lobby power for their
state, not who makes the best product...
Right now, the government is telling Pinnacle Armor to give them a few hundred
to inspect, if they pass inspection, they'll test them...
Translate to "we'll all be retired by the time anyone makes a decision"..
I spent 21.5 years off and on wearing body armor for law enforcement. My
son in the Army, 18 months in Kosovo some years back and 14 months in the
sand box in Iraq. He is a Special Ops COMO 10th Mountain and has worn at
least 3 versions of body armor all US issue
I had worn two different versions and there were not the same as my sons.
He was telling me that when they were training the Guardsmen heading to Iraq
most of them had what I had used it was 20+ years old. Many of the Regulars
gave the Guardsmen their old stuff because it was better than what they had
and many of the Reserves/Guardsmen did not have any body armor when they got
Right now the US Army has thrown up a green curtain to cover their BUTTS
because they dropped the ball early on. As of right now the military has
issued body armor for all their combat soldiers however is all is not the
same nor does it all protect the same.
Early in my career I wore some body armor that weighed over 20 lbs and some
of the soldiers are still using the old stuff especially the reserves and
guardsmen. The latest and greatest is a heck of a lot lighter and made of
ceramic and Kevlar but, with full field gear you are looking at humping 70+
pounds 24-7, try that.
I can see the concerns of the parents and I would not put my faith in our
government to provide our soldiers with the proper tools they need to get
the job done because I know that they did not. Hell, 3/4 of all the HUMMERS
deployed were not armored. When my son got deployed he installed the armor
in his hummer before it was shipped and he was glad he did. The thing
looked like a brick of swis cheese with all the small arms fire that it
took. It is a discrase that our Government does not provide the appropriate
tools for our young men and women. Hell I had to ship my son extra mags for
his sidearm because they were only issued two mags and good thing I did it
saved his ass several times.
On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 06:18:39 -0500, "Coasty" <uscg_ret at comcast dot net> wrote:
I appreciate your info.. but I'm looking for sort of moral answers, too..
Should the troops be allowed to wear and use whatever they want, or should it
all be issue?
I saw a grunt on the news that got a medical discharge after being hit...
THe Army was charging him for his body armor because they cut it off of him in
the ER and didn't either ship it to the hospital with him or make a note that
they "took possession" of the armor.. *sigh*
As for the humvees, they shouldn't be armored, IMO...
That's what my kid does, motor pool sgt. working on humvees...
He says that they are too heavy as it is and with armor they need a diesel
tanker following them...
Bottom line on the humvee IMHO is that it replaced the friggin' Jeep.. not the
sherman tank or APC... use it for a jeep and not an attack vehicle and you won't
yeah, as long as you didn't have to shoot someone with it... had about as much
stopping power as a pellet gun.. *g*
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