OT: Starter issue - 91 Tempo

Al,

Be sure that when you test the voltage at the starter you measure it across the two connections at the starter. In other words, don't just measure it from the plus lead at the starter to the frame. You may have a problem in the minus lead to the starter.

The other possibility is that your flywheel, for whatever reason, is presenting too stiff of a load for the starter to turn. This seems unlikely, however.

Perhaps there's something mechanically interfering with the solenoid or starter gear preventing it from engaging with the flywheel.

Other than that, I dunno -- especially since you replaced the starter and then soon after it happened again. It's very odd.

Let us know when you find the solution. Remember: you always find what you're looking for in the last place you look.

Bob

You say you "verified" the battery. Did you check each cell with a hydrometer? Sometimes a low cell or two can cause such problems.

Did you try bypassing the cables going to the starter? Personally I would disconnect the ground cable, clean the connections, and re-connect. Sometimes the positive battery cable (especially on that year Explorer) can look OK on the outside but be rotted away on the inside. Aside from that battery cables are reputed to develop more resistance as they get older but I've never actually measured an increase in resistance.

In addition to the good advice supplied by others, it may be you have a damaged flywheel or that the starter mount is misaligned.The solenoid on the starter moves the starter pinion gear out to engage the teeth on the flywheel. The circuit that turns the starter motor is not completed until the pinion has been moved out to engage the flywheel. If there is something interfering with the completion of this movement, the starter will not turn over. A flywheel with damaged teeth often have this problem. Ditto for a starter that is misaligned so that the pinion cannot move smoothly to engage with the flywheels ring gear. I am not sure how easy it is to see the flywheel's ring gear with the starter removed, but that is what I would try to do first. I'd also try to verify that the pinion extends fully into the ring gear.

Ed

I did look at the flywheel (the portion I could see) and it looked good - no wear at a all. Also did not see any filings near the starter gear and it's teeth looked clean. As far as alignment there are three bolts and no adjustments or play. I understand what you mean but I don't see how this could be the issue with the new starter as well unless the flywheel is missing lots of teeth...

Thanks.

I'm going to check the ground tonight. The engine does leak oil so maybe the connection isn't good. One idea I found was to run a dedicated ground from the battery to the starter and to see if that helps...

Thanks.

I took the battery to a shop and they "load tested" it. The main reason I don't think it's the battery is a boost or battery charger does not help the issue. The battery isn't even drawn down when the relay clicks which makes me think the starter was bad or I got a bad connection. Since I replaced the starter I think it must be the latter. I'm going to check the ground tonight...

Thanks.

It sounds like you're saying that the return path for the starter current is frame of the starter and then through the block and then finally to the battery. Assuming that the starter is solidly connected to the block (electrically) then it's possible that you have a poor return path to the block. Either way, if you can run a BEEFY return wire from the minus side of the battery to the starter frame then you'll know if that is the problem.

Again, I would recommend that you measure the voltage right at the starter -- from the hot lead of the starter to its return path (in this case, the frame of the starter).

Bob

I also wouldn't rule out what Ed said--it may be possible to get the starter installed and perhaps be just a tiny bit off of causing some kind of binding. I once bought a starter motor for a '66 Mustang and the rebuilt motor was bad. I took it back and the third one was bad too. That place in no longer in business ;-) It's probably almost impossible to not get a good ground connection on the starter housing with three bolts and all but I still like to clean the mating surfaces thoroughly before installing.

It sounds like it's probably not the battery but we are talking about Fords here. I had a battery in an Explorer that was so bad that it could not be jump-started. However, in that case, the battery tested bad.

Al, if the battery isn't drawn down at all when starting, then there is no chance that the starter is stalled or otherwise bound by the flywheel etc. You simply do not have a complete circuit from battery to solenoid to starter to ground to battery. You have to find the fault that is keeping the current from flowing. Try starting with the headlights on. If they stay on while starting, then the battery/cable connections are ok. If they dim on starting, then the batteryconections are suspect. If you have a helper, check for voltage across every element in the circuit while trying to start. At some point you will see the battery voltage and that will be the fault. (except for the battery itself)

Charlie

I had a look at the I actually bypassed the battery and just jumpered in a known-good battery - nothing but a click as before. Battery is ruled out in my mind.

Starter voltage is 12.5 at the starter to it's body. Tried a known-good battery (removed the other). Tried the ground wire (used booster cables) to the battery negative to the starter body - no luck, ground must be OK. Tried shorting the starter B+ terminal (12V) to it's solenoid terminal (which should energize it and turn the starter) -- nothing, not even a click. Still measures 12.5V at the starter??

OK, I thought maybe a bad starter power wire so I bypassed that. Only thing I had was a small clip (couldn't use the booster cables with 12V as they'd short out under there), but I got the starter to click! I figure it must be the 12V feed to the starter but I had a look and it looked fine. Also - how do you replace it anyways as snakes through and is tied wrapped to several spots I can't get at. Or do I abandon it and run a third wire?

Only other thing I forgot to mention is when it does crank (and start) my tach bounces all around (up to 4/5/6000) which I don't remember it doing before. Once it starts it is stable and runs great.

I figure it must be the 12V feed to the starter, I'm going to bypass it tonight with a better cable (see my other posts). I'll also measure the voltage down there while I'm trying to start it. If it is the starter 12V feed, how do you replace it anyways as snakes through and is tied wrapped to several spots I can't get at. Or do I abandon it and run a third wire?

Thanks.

Al, I assume that the tempo has the typical starter solenoid mounted on a fender. Take a jumper cable and just connect it to the in and out on of the solenoid . Actually just touching the second terminal with the jumper is all it takes to tell. Just so you are prepared, if it is the starter solenoid at fault then the starter will immediately turn over. If that is it there will be a husky spark when you make the second connection.

Charlie

Actually it's a little different as the fender has a relay and the solenoid is on the starter. Either way I checked that and it was good.

The issue in the end was the battery clamp for the positive feed to the starter. The battery actually has two wires off the positive terminal - one for the starter (which was bad) and the other for the mains (which was OK). That's why my light's didn't dim when it wasn't working - the feed for the lights was OK it was the dedicated starter feed that was bad.

It must have been corroded inside where the copper wire meets the lead clamp and wouldn't work well with high current (voltages were OK). I cut it off, cleaned the wires and replaced it with a universal one and now the starter always turns. I suspect the battery is low as well (I was starting it a lot to test) so I expect that will be next, especially once the cold weather starts. I'll drop by Costco and pick one up.

Thanks everyone for the insights.

On my '92 Explorer the battery cable (+) has the big cable going to the starter and the smaller red wires coming from the terminal so it's all one piece. Looking at it it seemed like it would be a really tough job but I bought a new cable, disconnected the old cable at both ends (plus disco the negative too before starting), and got started on it. It really was not as hard as it looked. The main thing is you need to have a few cable ties with you on your journey and pay a lot of attention to what the cable is and is not touching. Maybe the Tempo *is* more difficult, but the Explorer looked like a nightmare.