Trany trouble for my 91 EB 4x4

91 EB 4x4 Explorer with 207,000 miles. Recently replaced drive shaft U-joints, and RA bushings. New heads and valve guides last year.

I have posted here twice before describing an "air hammer" like noise and vibration whenever I slowly accelerate. While driving at 45 mph or faster, the noise and vibration begin just before the automatic transmission downshifts and only stops when it does downshift. If I accelerate hard and fast, the trany auto-downshifts rapidly and no noise is ever generated. This has been going on for several months. Now I'm starting to see a puddle of ATF under the car.

My local transmission repair shop is pretty sure the trouble is two fold; the torque converter is most likely the source of the leak, and the noise and vibration are most likely due to worn parts in the trany. It may be important to note here that the shop hasn't actually seen the car yet, I've only described the problem to him over the phone.

The shop's initial "over the phone" estimate is $1400.00 !!! OUCH !!!

Two questions: Does the estimate given sound right? Is the old '91 worth the investment?

Any advice will be most appreciated.

Mike

Reply to
Tiger
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The $1400 doesn't sound too bad, but... I suspect that your estimate is just the "tear it down and let's see what we find" estimate. After they have your trans all over the bench, a list of things will develop, things that are worn and need replacement. Before you decide to open the tran up, make sure you have a written, not-to-exceed, worst-case estimate of what a full overhaul will cost. $1400 will look like a great deal then.

On my '92, 45 mph is about the speed where it drops out of OD and lockup on the converter. You can separate these functions for diagnostic purposes by tapping on the brake pedal at the times you would normally hear the vibration. You describe that as "accelerating slowly", so plan on just resting your foot on the brake pedal enough to get the brake lights to turn on. This unlocks the torque converter, and will give you an instant idea whether the problem is in the converter.

You can manually select the D position with the shifter to see if keeping the car out of overdrive cures the problem. If it does, you have found that the OD inside the trans is really the culprit. My instant guess is that the OD unit is at fault, based on prior history with the cars.

Is your '91 worth the investment? I'm asking myself the same questions about my '92, which has 190k and the original transmission. Deciding factors include what the car is worth in your Florida market right now, what your alternatives are for replacement, and how many other miles are left in the car once the trans problem is solved. Look at the problem as a cost-per-mile calculation, and also as a cost-per-year calculation. Whichever is worse is the one you justify against. My cost for a soft-parts trans rebuild is in the $2k range (my speculation). I drive my car maybe 5k a year now, maybe less. With other costs like fuel, insurance, other likely repairs (like your valves and guides...) thrown in, the cost of driving the car is in the $1/mile range right now, and for the next few years. Now, how does that compare with other options? Look at new Explorers at maybe $30k delivered cost for a comparably equipped 4WD EB, and you delete the trans cost for a while, but add in cost of purchase over the five years that Ford will finance me, Even assuming that the car is sold for 50% of new cost at the five-year mark (very optimistic!), the per mile total operating cost is still well over the $1/mile cost of the older car. Looks like keeping the old one for another year or two may not be a bad deal, eh?

Run your numbers and see what makes sense for you. There's an inconvenience cost for being without the car while major work is being done. There's the "wife doesn't want to be seen in that old car" factor too. I call on clients and they ride in the car, and the old one, while still in "good" shape, isn't as comfortable as the newer ones. So factor that in. I can buy a new on on Ford's "X-buy" plan, one they share with their largest fleet vehicle buyers, and save a few dollars over the street price on a new one. But a lot of the dealer incentives make that deal look about average these days, especially when you look at cost-of-money and Ford financing. Anyway, I'll probably be at the Ford store soon, with my checkbook out.

In the meanwhile I split the driving duty with the 928. Want to see really ugly cost per mile numbers? I bought it used with very low miles, and figure that the previos owner 'invested' about $8/mile during his stint. My costs are a lot less, about $3/mile. Almost all of that is insurance and fuel, plus tires at $1k/set every 20k miles. (!) The old Explorer looks better and better all the time!

Cheers!

dr bob

"Tiger" wrote:

Reply to
dr bob

The day after I posted my problem, the trany began leaking LOTS of ATF. I knew that I needed to reslove this problem ASAP.

My local trany shop charged me $1650 for a re-built (one year warrenty) trany and that included replacing the engine's rear main seal (was also leaking).

Yep, the old trany was the source of all the "air hammer like" noise and vibration which I experienced everytime I accelerated, as this no longer happens with the new trany.

As for cost; well, I only paid $2000 when I bought it from a friend several years ago (I knew he maintained it well). I've spent very little additional money on it asside from new tires. It seems to run fine now, so I guess I'll keep driving it for little while longer.

Thanks for the advice, Mike

Reply to
Tiger

$1650?!?! You got off easy. I just laid out $2400 at Christmas when my

92 EB's tranny blew up on the way home for Christmas.
Reply to
John R

See, this is what I don't understand... why isn't this pricing out of range?

I can go get a certified used Explorer in the 91-96 range for $2000-$4000. A little more if I want all the fancy gizmos. I paid $2500 for mine 40,000 miles ago. The tranny is leaking fluid (with NO external evidence whatsoever of any leak!) but drives & shifts just fine - good gas mileage, too. So, I am looking at a repair... and here I see discussions of pricing that just blow my mind!

Why the hell would I put a $2400 tranny in a vehicle I bought for $2500? ? ?

The pricing makes no sense. It's this way for rebuilt engines, too. Prices are far too high to make any sense at all. One shop wanted $3000 to drop a rebuilt engine into my 85 Buick, a car that's currently worth less than $500. Who do they sell these things to???

For me, either I get a used engine/tranny/etc. from the junkyard and have it installed - or junk the car. The other options I see discussed just don't make any sense to me...

Why isn't there some economical alternative for older vehicles?

Bob

Reply to
Robert A. Matern

When you bought the used truck, it wasn't new, or rebuilt. The tranny you buy to replace the one that went bad will be either new or rebuilt. That's why it costs more.

Why pay that to repair an older vehicle? The $ value of the vehicle is unimportant unless you are planning to sell it. Otherwise, the vehicle is what it is. What would it cost to replace the vehicle instead of fix it? That's a better question. And here, you need to consider that the newer vehicle is still used, and may well require repairs itself.

The people who rebuild the trannies can't be expected to lower the price because it's going in an older vehicle. They have their costs that have to be made up in the selling price.

Ever notice that a used car parted out is more valuable than the same car as a whole?

Reply to
Bill Funk

$2000-$4000.

NO, it won't. It'll be USED. No way that either of those options makes economic sense.

Yes, but once I've put a $4000 into a $1500 truck... it is STILL a $1500 truck. The value is not improved at all! And, even worse, it still has the ENGINE which is just as worn as the old tranny. So then you have a truck with an engine with 200K on it, and a tranny that will easily outlast the rest of the truck. Does that make sense?

It would cost about $2500-$4000 to replace the ENTIRE TRUCK, with one about the same age as this one was when I bought it. And that truck, though still used, will have more wear remaining on ALL parts...

So, market economics have NO bearing? I don't think so... that's not how it works.

Can't be expected to lower their price because it's going into an older vehicle? What vehicle did they think an A4LD was going into???

And it does NOT cost $4000 to rebuild a tranny... only a fraction of that is costs. The rest is gouging people who are in distress, with disabled vehicles. Just as dishonest as the used car salesmen...

Yes, that's true of almost any mechanical item. But the difference is usually about double for all components taken together... no one component ends up costing more than double the value of the entire item!

Reply to
Robert A. Matern

Yes, to many (including myself). As I said, that $1500 figure is *what you can sell it for*. How long each individual part will last is immaterial; the wheels will last far longer than that. So what? Did you buy the truck as an investment, or as transportation? If as an investment, I can see your point. If as transportation, the question isn't "How much $$ is it worth?", but rather, "Is it filling my needs as a vehicle?"

Maybe. Maybe not.

Like I say above, smart economics involves more than just dollar value.

It makes no difference what vehicle it goes into; they still have to make a living.

And you have how much experience as a business owner?

Obviously wrong.

Reply to
Bill Funk

When it's broke half the time? When it clearly hasn't much more life on the engine? Does it makes sense to throw $2500 into a car that will require another $2500 in short order to replace an engine? Don't you think another option is needed? Would YOU do that???

No car is an investment. That's just silly - unless you intend to garage it for 25 years. No, I was just talking about a cost/benefit analysis. Remaining life on the other parts is critical to any such analysis - not just "is it meeting my needs", because that could be VERY temporary.

If a part on the market is so costly and the extended usability it provides is so short, it makes no economic sense. I'm guessing those prices are only paid by those too desperate to shop around, or who get trapped into it by a repair shop. There's no way you can sit down and justify it on paper.

So what? SO DO I! It's no excuse for overcharging or cheating anyone! And it DOES matter what vehicle it goes into... for economic reasons. You don't gold-plate a Yugo engine...

And that has what relevance, exactly? You have to be a used car dealer to know they're gouging people? You have to be a rebuilder to know a rebuilt part won't extend the life of your vehicle enough to be worth the price of another entire vehicle? If that's true, how can we ever get a fair deal? I don't care what it's worth to HIM - I care what it's worth to ME! And if it's designed for a car or cars that are sufficiently old that the extended usability will inevitably be very short... well, the pricing just doesn't make sense. This is a point where a discount version would be a good item to put on the market. PERFECTION is of little use in an older, worn vehicle.

When shops are charging $50/hr for labor (or more) it isn't hard to see that isn't justified. Just a lot of profit. Especially when the results are so often TERRIBLE. Why am I to assume the rebuild shop is any better?

Having paid to have rebuilts in the past, I find the current prices truly absurd. Again, it's the RESULTS that dictate this view. I paid for a $1500 rebuilt for my 85 buick, only to end up spending another $1500 to get it squared away. Wrong gasket in the rebuilt, and a bad install by the repair shop. Nice. And charged $50/hr for it, too. No way I will ever believe I wasn't being cheated...

The stories I see posted here don't give me any reason to believe otherwise.

OH REALLY? Care to cite an example? I love blanked statements with no facts...

I've parted out cars & computers, and I can tell you nobody is gonna pay you $1000 for the engine if they aren't willing to pay you $500 for the car!

Reply to
Robert A. Matern

In such a case, it's obvious that the vehicle isn't filling your needs. I covered that.

True. However, parts aren't priced on what you would like to pay, but on what the seller needs to stay in business. You are free to find a lower priced alternative. If there aren't any, then you might want to consider whay that is so.

Then don't. Buy another vehicle.

Who's overcharging or cheating? The fact that you can't justify *your* paying that much doesn't mean the part doesn't have that value at all.

It's becoming obvious that you don't really have much of an idea of how business works. You are freer to make an alternative offer; if the seller wants to sell for that lower price, fine. If not, you are SOL. There's lots of competition in auto parts.

Really? Ever tried running your own shop? No, you've already answered that. It is sort of amazing that you are so quick to claim being ripped off whan you obviously don't know the value of what you buy. Well, no, it's not, really; people do it all the time. The suggestion is this: if people are so willing to pay such outrageous prices, maybe you should get into the fun and open your own shop; you'll obviously make more than you do now, and be able to show us all that you are right.

Why did you pay for the fixes?

Yeah, right.

Somehow I seriously doubt that you did that, or, if you did, that you were able to make a go of it. In used autos, the individual parts are worth more than the auto as a whole. If you really did part out cars, you'd have known that; it's the whole idea of parting out cars.

Reply to
Bill Funk

I snipped this a bit to try to shorten it up... it was getting a bit long...

It *could* fill my needs... if I could get it fixed at a reasonable cost. I was hoping to avoid replacing it... but if that is indeed the only economical option... so be it.

Oh, the prices are quite a bit more than they need to stay in business. Or, perhaps they're covering losses elsewhere. But it is a bit naive to believe that all prices are based SOLELY on what is needed to stay in business...

That may indeed be the end result. It's sad that there are no more sensible options.

Nobody could justify paying that much - not even you!

Well, you're a self-appointed expert I guess...

I've run several businesses. Pricing always takes reasonableness into account. Otherwise, you don't sell much. Yes, your costs & overhead get figured in too. But if you take advantage of people in distress to charge top dollar - sooner or later they end up hating you for it. I always concentrated on finding *realistic* options for customers... not pushing options.

There are lots of situations where used (tested) is a better idea than rebuilt or new. That's all I am suggesting: a source of guaranteed used & tested parts. We're starting to see that in the used car market (certified pre-owned) precisely because nobody trusts the used car salesmen anymore; they've cheated and gouged too many people.

It's tough to do that when the seller knows you are STUCK. Usually, the person quoting the price is an intermediary (the repair shop) not someone who could actually *negociate*... so a person with a broken vehicle rarely has the option to do much in the way of price shopping. All the shops get their rebuilds from the same suppliers.

For USED, yes. For REBUILT, no. For NEW, none. Oh, minor parts there's lots of competition - but not for major parts.

I've got several friends (and a few relatives) who run their own repair businesses. It always amazes me that the best repairs often come from the cheaper shops. The ones charging top dollar are rarely worth it. Oddly, I've had severe problems with several AAA shops... even the AAA stamp of approval is no guarantee.

Willing is the wrong word. Stuck, as in "stuck paying", is what really happens.

Oh, sure... I'll start a whole business just to prove a point to you. HA!

Because I was STUCK, as I said. And because it didn't happen all at once, but in one failure after another. When do you decide to stop throwing good money after bad? It's a tough judgement call - especially when you only have one car, and can't spring for another at that particular moment. If I'd known what was coming... I certainly would have taken another path...

Hey, I haven't seen any stories here about the great bargain & great results someone got. Maybe those with wonder stories (instead of horror stories) should post some to cheer us all up...

Thanks for your confidence...

One part worth more than double the value of a whole car? HA!

Now, the aggregate total for all the parts is usually double the cost of the car or more... but I already said that! But no part ends up so radically marked up as to be double the value of the car. I can't take the engine out of my $1500 explorer and sell it for $3000... ain't gonna work. Used A4LD's go for $400 - $700 on eBay... that's much more in the usual range. Now, obviously if I sold the engine, tranny, and a few other key parts I could outstrip the $1500 easily. Probably reach the $3000. But no way could I do that with ONE part.

I have parted out cars - and computers - and I know what we actually GOT for the parts.

Reply to
Robert A. Matern

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