Ford - circling the drain

The answer is simple - the executives simply don't want to build them. The Focus isn't an exciting car. Nobody ever made a name for themselves in car history by building econoboxes.

Ted

No...honda never stayed in business building econoboxes... or toyota... Not nearly as exciting as a Javelin.

Econoboxes should be the bread and butter. Not half tons.

Try Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and Kia.

Jeff

I should have said, try Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia and Ford, with their Model T. Perhaps you heard of it. It made cars and pickups affordable for millions.

Jeff

The only Focus competitors built in the US are the Civic, Corolla, and Sentra. For whatever reason, those all sell for more than a Focus. Only the Civic is a better car than the Focus (at least in my opinion) and it sells for a lot more. The Corolla is a very old design and a significant percentage are still manufactured in Japan. I can't understand why anyone would buy a Corolla or a Sentra in preference to a Focus.

Ed

Your missing the point entirely. I said, noBODY made a name for themselves. I didn't say that there wern't famous econoboxes, and I definitely didn't say you could make money building them.

But with the exception of the model T, most people couldn't name one single exec or designer of any of those econoboxes. By contrast, if I were to say "Pontiac GTO" you would probably immediately think of John DeLorean, Corvette you might think of Larry Shinoda.

Just try to find out who the designer of the Datsun 210 was, I bet you can't. As I said, econoboxes aren't sexy, nobody in America made themselves famous being involved in bread and butter cars.

In other countries they don't have this problem - you probably could remember who was behind the VW Beatle.

Remember the Model T was pushed by the owner of Ford - who gained ALL the profits. Naturally, he was more concerned with money than making a name for himself. But the execs today aren't gambling their money - they get paid the same whether the company is successful or tanks - and so the are more full of themselves and more interested in building a sexy Resume they can take to the next host, should the existing one they are leeching off of, fail.

For all of Ford CEO Alan Mulally's bitching, I would bet money that if one of his execs did figure out how to make a profit on the Focus, the exec would get a pat on the head, while Alan would take all the credit and the stockholders take all the rewards.

Corporate America usually does not reward exceptional execs. Read just about any HR textbook today and they talk at great lengths about "environment" and "benefits" and other non-monetary rewards, to motivate employees. A midlevel manager can work late, weekends, and all of that to insure his department is profitable, but the company will only reward him if he goes out and finds another job at another company, then they will try last ditch attempts to match the other companys pay.

I figured this out for myself over 15 years ago (God, has it been that long?) I worked and did everything right for 4 years and did not get more than a

HR people will even admit if you press them that it's politically easier to hire in a manager then promote from within, even if you can pay the person you promoted $20K a year less. That is why most managers do that rather than promoting. The same managers then whine about why none of their employees has any loyalty, and scream bloody murder and threaten to sue over non-compete agreements if employees quit and work elsewhere.

The Japanese culture is very different from the US culture. It could be that Japanese are not so jealous when a hardworking coworker gets promoted. It could be that Japanese managers are more willing to reward with cash. It could be that Japanese don't care as much about a better lifestyle that more money can bring. Whatever it is, the Japanese have apparently figured out how to get their executives to put the welfare of the company at least on par with their own welfare, and any American business that doesen't figure this out will get it's ass kicked in a global market.

And note, I am not talking about the production floor line workers, most of whom work hard and do a good job. But, these workers have no control of decisions in the company, and so when you see a faltering company, the first place to look to find the problem is in the decision makers - the operations managers and their superiors.

Ted

Your missing the point entirely. I said, noBODY made a name for themselves. I didn't say that there wern't famous econoboxes, and I definitely didn't say you could make money building them.

But with the exception of the model T, most people couldn't name one single exec or designer of any of those econoboxes. By contrast, if I were to say "Pontiac GTO" you would probably immediately think of John DeLorean, Corvette you might think of Larry Shinoda.

Just try to find out who the designer of the Datsun 210 was, I bet you can't. As I said, econoboxes aren't sexy, nobody in America made themselves famous being involved in bread and butter cars.

In other countries they don't have this problem - you probably could remember who was behind the VW Beatle.

Remember the Model T was pushed by the owner of Ford - who gained ALL the profits. Naturally, he was more concerned with money than making a name for himself. But the execs today aren't gambling their money - they get paid the same whether the company is successful or tanks - and so the are more full of themselves and more interested in building a sexy Resume they can take to the next host, should the existing one they are leeching off of, fail.

For all of Ford CEO Alan Mulally's bitching, I would bet money that if one of his execs did figure out how to make a profit on the Focus, the exec would get a pat on the head, while Alan would take all the credit and the stockholders take all the rewards.

Corporate America usually does not reward exceptional execs. Read just about any HR textbook today and they talk at great lengths about "environment" and "benefits" and other non-monetary rewards, to motivate employees. A midlevel manager can work late, weekends, and all of that to insure his department is profitable, but the company will only reward him if he goes out and finds another job at another company, then they will try last ditch attempts to match the other companys pay.

I figured this out for myself over 15 years ago (God, has it been that long?) I worked and did everything right for 4 years and did not get more than a

HR people will even admit if you press them that it's politically easier to hire in a manager then promote from within, even if you can pay the person you promoted $20K a year less. That is why most managers do that rather than promoting. The same managers then whine about why none of their employees has any loyalty, and scream bloody murder and threaten to sue over non-compete agreements if employees quit and work elsewhere.

The Japanese culture is very different from the US culture. It could be that Japanese are not so jealous when a hardworking coworker gets promoted. It could be that Japanese managers are more willing to reward with cash. It could be that Japanese don't care as much about a better lifestyle that more money can bring. Whatever it is, the Japanese have apparently figured out how to get their executives to put the welfare of the company at least on par with their own welfare, and any American business that doesen't figure this out will get it's ass kicked in a global market.

And note, I am not talking about the production floor line workers, most of whom work hard and do a good job. But, these workers have no control of decisions in the company, and so when you see a faltering company, the first place to look to find the problem is in the decision makers - the operations managers and their superiors.

Ted

Maybe because the Corolla gets much better fuel economy? Source:

I can understand these reasons.

Who says Focus is not reliable? CR rates it as average. Admittedly they rate the Corolla better, but how significant is the difference - probably less than 1 problems every 2 years. The Corolla is rated about 3 mpg bettter, less than 10%, by the EPA, but it is also smaller. In CU testing, the overall fuel economy for the Corolla was

Ed

So, I looked at Edmunds and pretty much every 2002 Focus owner complained that they needed new rotors by 30K miles. Let's see, that's $250-$400 for the work and the aggravation of waiting around for Insty-Brakes to do the job? Yeah, I gott get me some of that. My Toyotas are going well over 60K miles on the first set of pads (yes, even my big, heavy Sienna, which does a lot of around-town duty with my wife, who is very hard on brakes) and the rotors are lasting 100K and more.

There's a reason I directed you to

The current Corolla was introduced in 2001 or so. The 2008 will be all-new. That's a long run for a Toyota but it's nothing like the way GM and Ford dragged out the Cavalier or Crown Vic. When's that Focus to be made over?

Get real. The trashy resale value of the Focus tells you that the judgement of the market is that the Coroll is the better car.

"Cramped?" Are you used to driving a motor home? Go check Edmunds' reviews of the Yaris; "cramped" is not a term Yaris owners use. "Value" comes up pretty often, though.

Not if you read the Edmunds User Review for the Focus - plenty of people there claiming as good or better mileage than the EPA numbers.

And BigMacs are the greatest hamburger in the world.

Not even Toyota Reports, errr...I mean Consumer Reports recommends the Yaris.

"The Toyota Yaris offers excellent fuel economy and reliability, but overall it trails better economy cars. The ride is compliant and routine handling is reasonably responsive, but handling gets sloppy and hard to control at its limits. Stops are very long without the optional ABS. Acceleration is adequate, but engine and road noise result in a loud cabin. The compromised driving position and the center-mounted gauges are frustrations. Although the starting price is enticingly low, a well-equipped Yaris sedan can easily top $15,000. First-year reliability is excellent, but the Yaris scored too low in our testing to be recommended."

In fact, of all the Toyotas CR has tested, only the Yaris and FJ Cruiser don't get the recommended rating. Even the Focus is recommended. However, owners (even CR readers who own them) seem to love them. I only sat in one and thought it was a POS, and over priced too. Do you really think it is better than a Honda Fit - a CR highly recommended model? 75% of the CR reader who rated the Fit gave it 5 stars but then but 6 of the 22 people who rate the Ford Focus gave it

Ed

Does that make them equivalent dinosaurs?

Does the Focus have variable valve timing? The Corolla has - and has had for quite some time. I'd think twice before suggesting that it's antiquated in comparison to other cars currently on the market.

There's a resale market for Big Macs?

Gee, if there's a bias towards Toyota, as you imply, why didn't Consumer reports recommend Toyotas 100%? That is to say, "Grow up."

I read CR. I have no idea what their "compromised driving position" refers to but owner reports on Edmunds suggest that their drivers are perfectly happy with the driving position. I've heard others praise the center-mounted gauges. CR may not like them but then perhaps it takes a while to get used to and appreciate (owners' reports also suggest this).

I don't recall saying it was necessarily better than a Fit. I also didn't necessarily say it was "better" than a Focus. You said, on 5/30 at about

Anyway, then you suggested the Yaris is "cramped" and I referred you to sources which suggest this is not the case. One Yaris owner report comes from someone who is 6'5".

First off I don't believe that to be true. It is the costs of doing business in the US, not the build costs that are hurting all American corporations, not just auto manufactures.

It costs Ford less than $9,000 to build a car, the size of a Focus, that sells to a dealer for around $13,000. But it is true, like most every manufacturer, they need the sales weighted small cars for CAFE to be able to sell the big cars and trucks that earn the big bucks for the corporation. The Town Car costs around $19,000 to build and sells to a dealer for around $37,000

Even if is true Ford needs to do what Toyota does, set up a Japanese corporation to avoid US Corporate income taxes, get most of their the raw material and most of the parts made in lower wage counties, that have far fewer government regulations, then assemble the cars in American plant with worker who are paid less, get fewer benefits and pay the majority of the costs for their own health care and pension plans so they can say the cars are made in America or better yet, simply import most of what they sell in the US as does Toyota. ;)

mike

I guess you never heard of the Ford model "T" LOL

mike

Duh! They do not make their "econoboxes" in the US. They are all made off shore and import into the US.

mike

Me thinks you need to do more research on Henry Ford and the Model "T," if that is what you believe.

Henry Ford is the man who said if your goal in going into business is to make money you are in trouble. Ones goal must be to obtain and retain customers, if you are to stay in business. If you do that the profits will take care of themselves.

Henry ford lowered the selling price of the model "T" every year, even as he added improvements the car, passing on the saving of the assembly line to his customers. He also introduced the highest pay scale in the country with what he called "The $5 day," to help buyer have more money to buy his cars. One of the reasons he eventually lost out to GMs Chevrolet was because he did not believe buyers wanted to buy fancier or more powerful cars

You obviously believe what Ford did but manufactures today know that is exactly what they want. The best selling car in ANY manufactures line up is not the smallest car nor is it the cheapest car in any of their individual models.

Every Japanese manufacture is making their cars, SUVs and trucks larger and more powerful than what they sold just five years ago. Even their fuel economy is not that great among cars and truck of the same size on the market. GM makes more models that get 30 MPG, or more, than does ANY import brand and they are doing it with the larger more powerful engines that buyers prefer. Toyotas newest truck does not get as good fuel mileage as do domestic trucks.

mike

Ted

Get real they were not reason they were questions asked and the answers it not what you may think. NO cars today, fall apart when the warranty ends. If some do it is because they have 100K warranties. What he call the Corolla slightly better fuel economy is because it has a lot small engine,

Toyotas so called better retail value is a result of it much high drive home price, than anything else. If a three year old Focus is worth $3,000 less than a Corolla it is because the Corolla cost $5,000 more to drive home when new. The Focus actually returns a higher percentage of the new car price, than does a Corolla. More importantly the Toyota dealer will not give YOU much of that so called higher resale value when you trade your Corolla. One will get more for ones trade at a Ford dealer. Toyota dealer typically offers than wholesale on all trades.

Mike

Toyota doesn't avoid American federal income taxes. Their subsidies are American companies (although totally foreign owned) and pay income taxes like any other American company. Ditto Honda.

If Ford set up a Japanese subsidy (or bought the rest of Mazda), then it would have to pay more income taxes than it does now, because Japanese corporate income taxes are higher than those in the US.

Most (around 80%) of the parts in US-built cars from Toyota are from the US. And most (nearly 60%) of the cars sold by Toyota are built in North America (US and Canada - the vast majority in the US).

Funny thing is that I haven't seen any labels "Made in America" on Toyotas or any other cars, from Toyota or the Michigan 3. Honda used to label some of its products "Made in America," but that was lawn mowers, not cars.

You need to check your facts before powering up the computer.

Jeff

How is 200 cc (0.2 liter) bigger than the 1.8 liter Corolla engine?

The Ford Focus with a 2.0 liter engine (perhaps that is what you meant) gets 27 mpg city / 37 mpg highway (with the 5-sp manual) while the Toyota Corolla with the 1.8 liter engine gets 30 mpg city, 38 highway. So the Toyota does better. Oh, and if you get the 5-sp manual in the Toyota, it gets 32 city/41 highway.

The Corolla has about 10 fewer HP (136 vs 126) and 11 fewer ft lb (133 vs 122).

The Honda Civic has nearly the same size engine as the Toyota (1794 vs

All numbers were for the 2007 models. And were obtained at the Ford website (using the model comparison feature).

You're comparing apples to oranges. There is more to value than a less powerful engine (the Ford's compared to the Honda's) and worse fuel efficiency (the Ford's).

The original retail price was about $10,000 (invoice price + destination was $13,000 - $3000 (estimated) discounts) for a Ford Focus. The Toyota was Corolla $13,500 (MRSP). So that is a difference of $3,500 in price. The Ford is now worth $7900 (retail) and the Toyota is worth $11,325 (retail). The Ford held 79% of its value while the Toyota held 83% of its price.

Now, if you go to trade it in, the Toyota is worth $9625 (71% of it retail price) vs. %6575 for the Ford (66% of its retail price).

So, whether you sell the used car at retail or at trade in value, the Toyota retains more of its value than the Ford, assuming one paid MSRP for the Toyota, but got about a $3000 discount on the Ford.

Only if Ford's 79% is more than Toyota's 83% (retail) or if Ford's 66% is more than Toyota's 71%.

All values are from NADA, using 07071 as the ZIP, 36,000 mi on the trade in and no options for either vehicle.

Well, you claimed that NADA reflects what the dealers actually pay for the cars. Anyway, no one is forcing one to sell the car to the Toyota dealer or buy another Toyota. Why would one want to do that? ;-)

Jeff