Ford - circling the drain

You said: "What he call [sic] the Corolla slightly better fuel economy is because it has a lot small engine, 500 CC."

That means that it (presumably the Corolla) has a 500 cc engine, not that the difference between the two engines is not 500 cc. If you said that the "is because it has a lot smaller engine, by 500 cc", then it would have been clear what you meant. I am sorry for any confusion.

I understand drive home price well.

Again, I used the numbers from NADA, which you claim is the only source that uses numbers directly from the dealers (although it does reflect the selling price of new cars, just used cars).

Perhaps you can tell me what a more accurate selling price for a 2004 Ford Focus was in 2003 or 2004.

Again, you are unable to back your claims.

Jeff

Go read the end-user posts on Edmunds. Many owners report it's an unreliable piece of crap and encourage others to avoid the Focus at all costs..

I see you've been smoking crack again. Large engine or small, the Focus gets nowhere near the fuel economy of the Corolla or Civic. You can check official EPA figuress at

or you can check actual end-user mileage reports there, whichever you prefer.

If you get screwed on a dealer trade, it's because you didn't do your homework. If I buy a new (or newer) car, I'll advertise my Toyota and sell it myself. In addition to retaining a greater percentage of its original price (in fact, all my bought-used Toyotas are still worth essentially what I paid for them), they're more liquid. When a Toyota or Honda goes on sale around here, it disappears in a couple of days. When somebody puts a "for sale" sign on a Detroiter, it sits there for quite a while before somebody puts it out of its misery. A guy in my department with has been trying to sell his big GM iron since late last year.

Something that the modern-day Ford forgot. When I was unhappy with my Ford product, a customer "service" representative, who called me from Detroit to say "no" let me know that in no uncertain terms.

"Don't you care if I ever buy another Ford again?" I asked her.

"No. I'm not in Sales," she replied.

With a corporate attitude like that, just how are profits going to take care of themselves? Answer: They're not, which is why Ford lost - what? $12 billion last year?

Ford's probably spinning in his grave right now.

And they stay ahead in the fuel economy race by introducing new, nice small cars (in the last 5 years, they've brought out the Scions, Yaris and extremely efficient Prius).

Utter bullshit. Name them. Camry? Better fuel economy than Impala or even the Malibu - with better performance. Corolla? GM has NOTHING that can approach 40mpg, which the Corolla achieves. Nor does Ford or Chrysler, for the matter of that. Toyota's been building real hybrids since '97 and selling them here since '00, offering 4 or 5 hybrid models now. GM STILL doesn't have a real hybrid on the market (the Saturn "Green Line" and the Silverado HD simply shut the engine off at stoplights - big whoop, I can do that all on my own).

Really? Then why is the Lucerne such a slug, compared to the Avalon? The Lucerne's V8 does it no good whatever.

Also entirely untrue. The EPA ratings for comparable trucks are generally very comparable but Edmunds and CR testing both show the Tundra does significantly better on fuel economy than the comparable Chevy and Ford products and absolutely blows them away in performance, too. Toyota didn't build the Tundra to max the EPA test, it built the Tundra to deliver value.

It's very likely that Honda will be bringing their Diesel Accord here next year. That sucker may get 70mpg on the highway. It's achieved 90mpg (Imperial gallons, I believe) on the street in Europe. Toyota says their '08 Prius will have significantly better fuel economy than the current model, which a friend reports routinely gets him 50mpg (as measured by what he puts into it).

Bloomberg

Toyota Motor Corp. probably moved closer...to ending Ford Motor Co.'s

76-year reign as the second-biggest seller of automobiles in the U.S.

Ford's sales may have dropped in May for a seventh straight month and Toyota's probably rose, analysts surveyed by Bloomberg said. Through April, Ford's lead in U.S. sales had narrowed to 50,242 vehicles from

232,922 after the first four months last year.

"I don't think there's much debate that Toyota will overtake Ford" in the U.S., Dennis Virag, president of Automotive Consulting Group in Ann Arbor, Michigan, said in an interview. "You won't have to wait very long for that."

Ford has been No. 2 in the U.S. behind General Motors Corp. since

1931...

Many? Define that. The overall rating by owners was 8.7, not great, but not awful either (the FABULOS Corolla got a monstorouly higher rating of 9.0). I didn't see a single review where anyone reported it as "an unreliable piece of crap." I did not rear all the Edmunds' reviews, but I looked for the lowest rating a I could find. At CR Online 17 of 22 reviewers gave the Focus 5 Stars (highest rating). Here are a few of the o"other" comments from Edmunds:

"Just got the Ford Focus SE 5 door. So far I like it. The gas millage is great. The Focus seems to handle very well. "

"So far I'm getting about 34 to 35 mpg on standard 5-speed."

"I love my Ford Focus!"

"Just got this car in the past few days as a replacement for another vehicle. I have found that this cars basic features are better than the same type cars in its class and I have no problems with this car so far. I did a great deal of research on this car and liked the MPG and the way it handles on the road. I have the added features of cruise control and side air bags that my last 2007 vehicle did not have plus that same gas savings even with the added horse power. Not as costly as a Toyota in the same class and is a better car than the

2007 Yaris that I had to replace. I would highly recommend this car for anyone looking for a fun way to get from here to there with good dependability."

"Great car! Comfortable, roomy, spirited and very reasonably priced."

"MPG verses room. 30+ mpg no matter how I drive it. Top mpg has been

37 so far with a 4 speed automatic."

Even the people that gave it a bad rating, talked about how well it drove. The worst compalint I saw was some one complaining about a squeak the dealer had not fixed yet.

EPA Ratings

Best Corolla - 1.8L, Man(5), Regular - 28/37 Best Focus - 2L, Man (5) Regular - 24/33

At the EPA site, for the Focus, the number of actual users reporting mileage on any one model was tiny - I don't think you could consider it statistically significant. The highest average Focus was a 2001 2L Man - 34.0 mpg, but only 2 reports were included. The lowest was for a

2002 2L Man - 24.4 mpg, but again this was based on two reports. Hardly worth talking about. There were more reports from Corolla owners, but not enough to be statistically significant. In general, it appears to me that the delta between the Focus and Corolla based on user reports is exactly what you would expect from the EPA estimates. The typical Corolla driver probably gets 2 to 4 mpg more than the typical Focus driver. On the other had the 4 Door Focus has more passenger room than the Corolla ( 94 to 89 cubic feet) and more luggage volume than the Corolla (15 to14 cubic feet). The mileage difference was similar in the Conumer Reports Road Tests. For a 2003 Corolla LE sedan, 1.8-liter Four, 4-speed automatic, CR claimed 20 city, 39 highway, 35 on the 150 mile trip, and 29 mpg overall. For a 2002 Focus door hatchback, 2.0-liter Four, 4-speed automatic, CR claimed 17 City, 33 highway, 29 on the 150 mile trip, and 24 mpg overall (and the 2007 should have better mileage). So it seems to me you can expect the larger Focus to get 2 to 4 miles per gallon less than the Corolla. After 100,000 miles you might save $1500 on gas. I am confident that I can by a Focus with similar equipment for more than $3000 less than a Corolla. And remember the Focus is larger. When you read the user reviews for the Corolla the things most people seem to rave about are reliability and gas mileage. Focus drivers rave about room and handling.

Ed

Actually, if you look at the '04s, it's 8.7 to 9.2. And the range of those ratings isn't all that wide. Cars that are total, unmitigated pieces of crap usually still manage an 8-point-something, because most of the reviews are written before the breakdowns begin.

Well, read on...

I like to look a few years back, to see how the long-term reliability is going to shape up. Here's my favorite Focus review - I was looking at comments for the 2002 SE 4-door, it's the first one you see in that category, but Edmunds does seem to mix models (or people are careless about selecting matching models when entering their notes):

"In 4 years I have had to replace the front rotors and brake shoes (the first year!), replace two window motors and regulators, replace the power steering pump, rack & pinion unit, battery, CD player, factory dry rotted tires, and the air bag light keeps coming on. The car looks brand new inside and out, is regularly maintenance, has few passengers (no kids), is driven carefully and has few miles on it. A mechanic said you have a 50/50 chance on getting a good one. Guess which % I was in? Please, don't buy one!"

Just a 50/50 chance of getting a good Focus? Why would a mechanic think that? I read the first 12 reviws. The very next:

"I bought this car at 20k miles. At 30k, it needed new brakes and completely rebuilt calipers. The mechanic told me that it was very common for the factory installed plastic calipers to fail at 30k miles. The car is now at

60k miles and has gone through 3 sets of brakes (I do not drive like a maniac at all) 4 sets of tires, and 3 stereos. The factory-installed 6-disc changer on this car is a piece of junk and fails constantly. Recently, the engine has started leaking copious amounts of oil. With all of these problems, I have been told that they are common with the Focus (especially the 2002) but not with other cars in its class like the Toyotas. No pickup, bad car."

The very next:

"I bought my Focus SE used; it was only a year old - just off a fleet lease in 2003. What got me to buy the car initially was the smooth/comfortable ride for such a small car and the awesome sound system. It was just fun to drive. I'm going into my 3rd year with this car (31,500 miles) and problems are arising already. So far: CD/stereo volume control seldom works, 3 out of the 4 heat/AC fan speeds don't work, the AC doesn't work at all, the fan whines & sputters when it does "work", no power to extra outlet, trunk lid closes shut 1/2 the time. It's becoming more & more clear to me why Toyota & Honda sales are rising and American car companies sales are declining. I see a Toyota in my future."

The very next:

We bought this car as students, and chose the wagon because we took lots of road trips and camped a lot. The car is very roomy for cargo storage, and the roof rack has come in handy more than once. The ergonomics of the dash and radio are great, the fuel economy is good. Our issues with the car have really been in the quality of the build rather than in its design. Front springs broke at 50K, one spark plug stopped firing at 30K (covered by warranty), we've gone through three sets of tires despite regular alignment and rotations, brakes are small and wear away quickly, and rear license plate light fell out at about 22K miles. Rear window no longer goes up if it gets put down.

The very next, not as negative but not exactly a ringing endorsement::

"My wife and I replaced my old SUV with a compact to help alleviate rising fuel costs. The car is not all that bad to drive, and we've yet to have any problems. Well, except for three (3): 1. it can only get 20 m.p.g in city driving; 2. the front left tire cannot hold air and we had all four tires replaced at point of sale; 3. the trunk lid opens at inconvenient times. The sticker claims the EPA fuel rating is 26/30, city/hwy. That in and of itself isn't great for a compact, but 20 m.p.g or even less surprised me. Still, the purchase price was fair and the dealer treated us with respect. Time will tell if we're willing to buy another Ford or go back to Toyota."

The very next:

"Good gas mileage, acceptable performance, not too uncomfortable, but pretty unreliable; seems to break down every other month after two years."

Are you keeping track? That was the first five reviews. Then we find a (fairly) satisfied customer:

"Even 5 years on, when I looked for a small car to buy the Focus stood out. The best aspects are a unique style inside and out, a user friendly interior and seating position, the best handling of any non-sport compact but a comfortable suspension worthy of a larger car. Don't worry, I say this having test driven the Corolla, Civic and Golf. On the downside, the fuel economy is not as good as it should be for a small car, the reliability is acceptable, but not bullet-proof and there are a few annoyances that are easily overshadowed by the good points."

Reliability is "acceptable!" Woo-hoo!! At leasst that guy will buy another Ford, maybe, someday. Here's a much, much happier customer:

"My baby sleeps outside every night and never complains. She doesn't cough or sputter when the weather gets cold. She doesn't blow her top and get freaky when it gets really hot. Gently she carries me daily mile after mile. It has the comfort and control of a finely tuned high performance car. I fear she has only one fault that I can find, with her front end as low to the ground it leaves the radiator and condenser sitting ducks for any small creature with a death wish. My only hope is that they redesign the protection of these by perhaps a deflector or stronger bracket.With that said, my Focus has been the most dependable car I've ever owned ... I LOVE HER!"

I'm glad he likes his car but I think he needs to go out on a date with a real girl. This guy likes his Focus, too:

"This is the best car I've bought so far. Besides the fact that it's very fun to drive, it handles the road very well and has tons of storage space. I have made many trips to Ikea and have fit very large boxes in my car, while other people next to me in pick-up trucks had a hard time fitting smaller boxes in their trucks. It's great on gas (about 30 miles average, more on the freeway) and has plenty of horsepower. I would recommend this car to anybody who likes the convenience of a wagon and the sportiness of the Focus."

However, he also went on to say:

"Better manufacturer brakes, which don't last too long. I got premium brakes at PepBoys later, and they work just fine."

After another note or two from relatively satisfied customers, we find this gem:

"Our company owns three 2002's. One blew engine after 1700 miles. Hose clamp failed, waited 3 weeks for replacement motor under warranty. Tranny valve went out in another car @ 22000 miles. Now this same car is needing a new tranny @ 57000miles. All 3 have trunk release problems, eat tires and rattle a lot. All of these cars have been maintained to Ford specs and dealership service. No more Ford's for us. The jokes are still alive and well, Found On the Road Dead & Fix Or Repair Daily."

What are 2002 Corolla owners saying? I looked at the first 12 reviews there, too. The very first reviewer has a problem:

"This is an okay car that gets good gas mileage. It started burning oil at around 85,000 miles, and is now going through a quart every 1,000 miles - not what I'd expect from a Toyota. It handles okay, but not as well as my '99 Ford Contour, and is really underpowered. Does not do well in snow, but it does start up reliably, even in subzero temps."

Can't win 'em all. Maybe it's a cheap fix - he ought to get it looked at and I'd recommend different tires if he's having snow handling issues. The very next reviewer is satisfied, if uninspired:

"This corolla S is not the most exciting, but compared to my other cars (audi/bmw) is built superior. In 33K, it has required ZERO maintenance costs. Just oil changes and it gets 30mpg mix driving. The S version is much nicer and the interior is pretty good. Handling is only ok. Resale value is very high. Great student car."

And the quality is OK on this one but watch out for the 3-speed automatic (available on the CE only, I guess):

"Another typically efficient Corolla from Toyota - with the glaring exception of the 3-speed autobox. It's good for shuttling around town, but venture out onto your local Interstate and the car gets way too noisy and thirsty. A compact car such as this should average far better than 25mpg. So go for the 4-speed auto every time. You'll save yourself a lot of fuel and possibly your sanity too."

Not, "Don't buy a Corolla," just "don't buy one equipped with a 3-speed." The next is a pretty happy Corolla owner:

"At 82,000 miles This little car is an around winner. I bought it in 2001 and I have never had any problems with it. I replaced the original cheap Goodyear tires the first month because I got tired of sliding all over the road in the rain. This is without a doubt the most dependable transportation car I have ever owned."

So was the next:

"Owned this car for over a year and I really can't find anything bad to say about it!!! Purhaps a little more leg room for back seat passengers,otherwise a great buy."

Then a solid endorsement of the brand:

"The Toyota Corolla is the best car I've owned. It has excellent fuel economy and the vehicle is very reliable. The next vehicle I purchase will be either a Toyota Corolla or a Camry."

As was the next:

"Owned the LE three years now, and just change oil and add gas occasionally! My roads are secondary, usually, so I can normally get 40 to 44 MPG (55 MPH). I researched before buying, and know I made the right choice. The ONLY complaint is that the car needs either a six-speed, or more HP. Even a seasoned manual transmission driver (all my life) can still kill the engine at times. It just does not have a low enough first gear! I am 55 years old and this will be my last commuter, it is built that well. Just keep clean oil in it, and pay attention to coolant change-outs. You will not be disappointed."

And the next:

"I got this car to travel weekly between my home near New Orleans and my new job in Texas, 326 miles each way on the weekends. Am getting 39 miles at 70 mpg on highway, no problems at all. I am very tall and need seat to go back farther, other than that am fully satisfied. My last four vehicles have been Toyotas, super dependable, never in shop."

The next review ranked it "10's" across the board but only had this to say:

"There was a problem with my leather interior on the doors, but the manufacturer replaced it."

I guess he liked it. Next:

"Amazing little car it gets 39 MPG with 5 speed manual transmission. Excellent commuter. I paid $11,800 for this jewel brand new and it has been a very reliable automobile. It's going on 60K miles and no problem. It has Air Conditioning but no power windows."

"Amazing" and "jewel." I guess he likes it. The next guy has buyer's remorse:

"Reasonably comfortable, utilitarian vehicle. However, the fuel efficiency has not been impressive. I will probably purchase an American car next, because: 1. Their engineering and design teams are making substantial progress toward reestablishing themselves as innovators. 2. The aggressive discounting by the American automobile companies has made their cars an unmatched value. Can you tell that I regret the purchase and wish I'd bought a far- superior -- and cheaper -- American car, instead?"

But even he didn't cite any reliability issues or other problems. Gee, Ed, was that your review? I also fail to see how that guy thought the Americans were reestablishing themselves as innovators in '02, when the only hybrid available was a Toyota Prius. Maybe in '02, Chrysler was bringing back a "new, more formal roofline." Next, another happy customer:

"I bought this car as a commuter and was glad when the only one left on the lot was the S model. This is my first Toyota and I will definitely buy another one in the future. I highly recommend the S model for the sportier feel and added amenities. This is a daily driver that I put 100 miles per day on."

Is every owner joyously happy with their Toyota? Well, no, but most are and they whole-heartedly endorse Toyotas.. And a couple of Focus owners are pretty happy. But in all these reviews, the thing that stands out are the ones who swear they won't buy that make again - and that's only found in the Focus reviews. None of the Toyota reviewers slammed the brand like that. Moving up to 2004, 3 out of the first 20 Focus reviews cite serious reliability issues, only 1 of the Toyota reviews mentions serious disapointment (and that was fuel economy).

And I'm really shocked by the number of people who need brake work by 30K miles (several Chevy models are like that, too). All of my Toyotas are '99-'01s and only one (the one with 124K miles) has needed any brake work at all (that's right, original PADS on Toyotas with 69K, 79K and 95K miles). And NO problems on any of them. And by NO, I mean NO. All the little switches and accessories work, the windows power up and down at full speed, there's no odd mechanical noises (standing next to them when idling, you can hardly tell they're running), no buzzing in the speakers. And they all hit their EPA fuel economy rating or do better.

What's my next car? An '09 Prius. Or maybe an Accord Diesel.

Which is good because you'll need the remaining $1500 for repairs. You'll be replacing the brakes within the first three years.

And I'm not sure just how you're getting those numbers (Corolla is 2 to 4mpg better) for fuel economy because that's certainly not what I'm finding.

FuelEconomy.gov Sticks:

2006 Focus, 2.0L, 5M, EPA combined 26, user reported 29.9, 8 reports. 2006 Focus 2.3L, 5M, EPA combined 23, user reported 27, 1 report. 2006 Corolla 1.8L, 5M, EPA combined 31, user reported 36.4, 16 reports

With sticks, user reports put the Corolla nearly 7mpg ahead.

Automatics:

2006 Focus, 2.0L, 4A, EPA combined 25, user reported 25, 5 reports. 2006 Corolla 1.8L, 4A, EPA combined 29, user reported 32.6, 24 reports.

With autos, again, the Corolla has about a 7mpg lead.

The '05s were a bit closer, with the Corolla having a 5 to 6mpg lead.

Yaris is a toy not a car. Maybe for a kid but no one who knows anything of cars would buy one. They are cheap looking and cramped

You don't need to apologize for being confused, we are accustomed to you being confused. Obviously you do not understand the difference between the selling price and the drive home price. Educate yourself, for a change, on the subject before you choose to reply, WBMA. Go get a selling price on ANY car, then try driving it home for that price.

One can get the exact same car, for the exact same selling price, on the exact same car with the exact same MSRP, from two different dealerships, yet the drive home price can be hundreds, or even thousand of dollars more on one than the other. When I was in retail we often offered a selling price that was $2,000 below our cost when the buyer had as late model trade. We simply deducted $3,000 for the trade price when presenting the drive home price. On our foreign brands we always had a $2,499 'smoke and mirrors package' that cost us $150, on every car on the lot. We could 'discount' the selling price $2,300 and still sell the vehicle over MSRP. If the customer insisted on more for the trade we simply our 'fees' increased the retention on the interest rate. It is known in the business as never reducing the gross.

A new car Sales Managers goal is to have a little capital tied up in a deal as possible, since rarely will there be enough cash received, to pay the manufacture for the that new car after the sale. I may take the sale of two or more of the resulting trades, before the dealerships cash flow becomes positive, after the original sale.

mike

"Jeff" < ...

Actually I never got screwed, I was the Group Sales Manager, we were the ones doing the screwing. We always made a higher gross on our import brands and gave lower trade prices. LOL

When you sell your own cars do you do a 'trade through' at the dealership where you are buying your next car?

mike

I'm not at all surprised. The dishonesty shines through.

Of course not. Why let a dealer, like you were, screw me? I sell them myself. If you have desirable cars (i.e., not crap purchased from Ford), it's fast and easy. It was a different situation when we owned a Ford and just wanted to unload it, fast, and get something reliable. No more of that for me.

LOL. I can remember my SO selling her old late 80's Camry - now that was a trip. It ran, but it leaked so much oil and transmission fluid she had to park it in the yard (off the paved driveway). The paint was shot and the interior too. The car was only about 8 years old but had close to 200K miles. I wouldn't have given you $5 for the car, but finally a Hispanic guy bought it for $500. I think she could have gotten more, but she just wanted to get rid of it - it was killing the grass in the yard. Last year I sold my 3 year old Thunderbird - bought it used for 26K, drove it for 2 years and 32K miles and sold it for

24K. Not too bad I think Of course it looked like new, and still had a few miles left on the original warranty. I also had good luck with a 1996 Explorer. I bought it new in late 1995 for $27k. The next year Ford introduced the Expedition, and I decided I wanted one of those instead. I was able to sell the 1 year old Explorer with 32K miles for $24K. It was only in the paper for a day. Of course it helped that it was still under warranty and it looked and ran just like new. Another Ford product I sold was a 1992 Grand Marquis (my parents car). It had around 90K on the odometer when I sold it for my parents in 2000. It looked like new and ran like new. I never even put it in the paper. I listed it on a local buy and sell web page and sold it the next day for my asking price. My worst mistake was selling my younger Sister's 1990 VW Passat. The car looked good but was a POS. Door handles would just fall off, neither rear power window worked properly, everything under the hood was coated in grease, etc, but it ran. I listed the thing for weeks in the local paper and on line. Finally two Mexican guys came to look at the car. We went for a test drive on the local interstate. They scared the s#$ out of me. The one guy drove like a mad man. Thank goodness they bought the car. The older I get, the less I want to deal with selling used cars. One of the local mechanics will sell them for you - he always has people looking for good used cars, so for a small fee, he will just let you leave a used car at his garage. He doesn't advertise, but enough people know the drill, that he usually sells them very quickly. Much better than trying to deal directly as far as I am concerned. My preference is to sell cars to people I never plan to see again. One time I made the mistake of selling one of my used cars to my Sister. For as long as she owned the car, I felt obligated to fix it - and she kept it far too long to suit me.

Ed

The dealer will HELP you, dummy. If you do a trade through you will save on the state taxes ;)

mike

Sure. He saves me a few hundred bucks while he's fleecing me out of a few thousand. What a deal.

She or he's not fleecing you out of the money. The dealer has to go to the trouble of selling the car and takes the risk that there is a major problem with the car.

If you want to sell a car (or buy one), you can get reasonable prices for the car at kelly blue book and from NADA, all for free, on the internet.

If the dealer is taking advantage of you, it is only because you are letting him or her.

There is nothing that says you have to trade in your vehicle instead of selling it yourself.

Jeff

Apparently you not nearly as smart as you think. I guess that explains why you choose to buy what you buy. The dealership has nothing to do with the price at which choose to you sell your car in a trade through, dummy. Not only can a trade through save you state taxes, a trade through at a dealership can save you money on the transfer fees, as well ;)

mike

Go reread the note from "Mike Hunter" of 6/4 1138A.

Right. That's why I do so.

The dealership does not "buy" or "sell" ones vehicle on a trade through.

mike

First, there is no reason to call anyone here names, like "dummy."

The dealership has nothing to do with the trade-in price? (I think that is what you meant. You said: "The dealership has nothing to do with the price at which choose to you sell your car in a trade through, dummy.") Someone who wasn't a dummy would write in English and proof-read what he writes, so we could understand what he means. Of course, people who aren't dummies are smart enough not to top-post either, so that we could follow the thread easily.

If the dealer doesn't determine the trade-in cost, who does? Didn't you say in a recent thread that import car brand dealers give less in trade-in than domestic brand dealers? This is a contradiction?

And can you please explain why the Kelly Blue Book (KBB) and NADA both list lower prices for tradeins than for private-party sells? Don't tell me that the dealer has to follow the KBB or NADA prices, though. The dealer and costumer ultimately set the price, not the KBB or NADA.

BTW, the title transfer fee in PA is $22.50. A huge savings.

Jeff

Thanks. For me, it was 1238 (different time zones).

Exactly.