How much Battery drain is normal ?

You proved your point... I guess everybody thinks i am an idiot. I dont really care..

I went to school for electrical engineering... not the study of automobiles. Sure you can do an OPEN CIRCUIT VOLTAGE test (OCV) Or a specific gravity test (SG) Big acronyms... tough to handle.

The point is early on the guy who originated the post said the battery was at 12.5V when it was open circuit... sounds like the batttery is fairly good to me. Based strictly on an open voltage test.. which proves nothing in my book.. the battery may fail under load.

As for specific gravity test.. the batter may have the correct chemical make up and a good solid OCV.. however I have seen batteries where the plates are so distroyed that they only hold a fraction of their capacity. OCV and SG together cant prove this case.

For the price of a battery today if the battery is in question and over 3 years old.. get a new one. they are not worth the time.

He said that after sitting with the battery connected for 6 days it would not start the car.

If he opened the connection on the battery and let it sit for 6 days he can test it. Im trying to provide the cheapest way possible not necessarily the quickest.

A specific gravity sucker (tecnhnical terms) may cost 18 - 24 bucks. If the battery starts the car ok and wont after running the car for a bit.. sounds like a charging problem along with a possibly bad battery.

Would you like to explain how you measure a voltage drop of a ground on the car? That line confused me very much.

You said "Why not simply take a voltage drop measurement of lets say the engine ground for one?" do you mean the drop in voltage of the wire that gets mounted to the block? What will that prove? do you know the resistance of that wire exactly? When you measure it, it will likely be less then half an ohm... since wire is not calibrated it would be difficult to deduce anything from those measurements, unless of course i mis understood what you were speaking of.

If i had the problem.. i would already be back and running. some things are better shown then explained... I beleive this may be a case.

anyway... perhaps my thoughts are better welcome at other things... like small electrical circuits, since that was my core of study.

Im thorugh making suggestions, everybody ignore what i said, since none of it can possibly be correct.

Happy new year to all

Reply to
Ken Gallo Jr
Loading thread data ...

Oh yeah, yup, sure...

I guess that explains it... The electrons that -you- studied somehow work dirrerently than the ones riding around in an automobile. pretty much explains the sad state of affairs in todays educational system, and why engineering services are being sourced to countries like China and India.

Standard usenet protocol, nothing big about it.

12.5 volts in a lead cell battery is 75% charged. Schooling leave you well rested did it?

At 75% state of charge, a load test is more than a bit premature.

Sure they can. there is no way that a battery with plate damage can sustain a correct specific gravity unless someone had adulterated the electrolyte. Bone up on the chemistry of a lead acid battery.

And when that doesn't work? What, another guess at the problem?

Sounds like a key off draw to me, easily quantified with basic test equipment.

What if he doesn't have six days to wait? Could be he was on vacation but now he needs his vehicle up and running. So let's suppose he does have six days to sit and wait and watch the grass turn brown, after six days he'll still not have any useful data as to what the cause might be. An experienced technician can glean from the parasitic draw measurements (milli-amps) what the offending component might be.

"Hydrometer." (I use a refractometer myself)

$5-$10

for a bit..

Charging problem along with a bad battery and six days wasted. Sorry, six days to determine what can be done in less than six

-minutes- is unacceptable, even for a DIYer.

You're schooled as an EE and you don't know what a "voltage drop" measurement is?

In not so scientific terms, yup, that's the one.

Whether the wire exhibits any excessive resistance under load.

That is precisely the point of doing a voltage drop on the circuit (wire/cable).

Ever connected a volt meter to an ohmeter? Do you suppose that the voltage level and the amount of current that your ohmeter is able to sustain is orders of magnitude lower than what might be experienced given the load of an operating starter motor?

What do you mean "not calibrated?" Every gauge of wire has an ohms per foot specification. It's one of the reasons that your house or apartment doesn't burn to the ground when you switch on a lightbulb.

Just as it would be difficult to deduce anything from your "Input impedance" measurement. On the other hand, feel free to use your ohmeter to measure the resistance of (say) a typical #194 automotive bulb and tell us what amount of current will flow thru it in a 12 volt circuit using Ohms Law (as applied by yourself previously).

If you had a problem, you'd be riding the bus or hitch-hiking.

Yes, best to stick to ones specialty.

Sorry, no offense, but if you're what passes for an educated professional these days, the soup kitchens are going to be overloaded in the near future.

Reply to
Neil Nelson

So let me guess, the electrical system of a automobile does not follow Ohm's law and the very principles you studied? I'll give you a little hint, electrical engineers design the electrical components that go in a car.

Nope, below 12.55 is a problem. Something tells me you do not know why.

Did not do so well in that part of your studies did you?

If done correctly will is very conclusive and a defective battery will show up. Then some one who knows what to do next will do at least one more step. Do you know what that is?

Well for once you give a good solid piece of advise.

Which can be caused by both the battery and the electrical system, 6 days to do a test that a few very inexpensive ( all you need is a hydrometer and DVOM with a accuracy rating of .5% or less ) tests in about an hour will tell you more................where did you study?

And can be used over and over in the normal preventive maintenance that will keep the person out of car trouble. Better and far less expensive than calling a tow truck.

Hey, your getting a clue, now your close to why your "tests" are junk.

And your an electrical engineer? Let me ask you this. You take an ohm reading it shows 2 ohms or less on an electrical ground, do you know for sure it's a good ground and can support the current flow? That's a hint.

The above line is a hint.

I said voltage drop, not a resistance check. Although in a round about way it is the same. But you being an electrical engineer, you would know that.

Based on what you have said, nope.

A air bag module is not a small electrical circuit?

Good for you. You now have a clue.

Reply to
Thomas Moats

Your a god i wish i can be just like you...

I admitted my wrong, and yet you have to rub it in like some sort of preschool kid.

Automobiles do follow ohms law... however without having the schematics in front of me at the time of troubleshooting I do not know what the heck goes on in there. From the battery I do not even know where the wires go. The ground gets mounted to the chassis (or block). I have never looked at a schematic of an automobile.

So maybe i do not know why below 12.55 is not a problem you want to explain it insted of sitting atop your high horse blasting me with useless comments?

Open voltage test proves nothing.. I can force a capacitor to hold 12.66V of charge. Good luck starting your car with it.

(The capacitor would too)

I completely disagree... a battery can have a good ocv, and the specific gravity may have been altered by adding electrolyte. How can you tell? you cant its impossible. Again the plates may be shot.

I guess if the tests work out well you should do a load test? Can we be any more immature? Shall I test you on digital logic just for fun? Or perhaps assembly language... can I test you on that?

Not for once... maybe in this string, but its not the very first time i gave good advise.

Forget the hydrometer. the electrolyte may have been altered. Start the car and check that the charging system is working, if its not theres more depth to the problem. Load test the battery, that will provide a tell tale sign of if its the battery or not.

Not all batteries are maninentence batteries.. as a matter of fact most batteries I see any more are maintence free.. unless you spend extra money for the ones you can maintain. You going to try and use a hydrometer on a sealed battery? By the time you get the battery open and figure out how to reseal it.. you should have gotten a new battery

Not all my tests were junk, the input resistance test would be interesting... it may not show anything except for a close to short condition. Maybe thats what the guy has... It would be interesting to me to know what the input resistance is of a car.. i relize that the loads change but i thought it would be interesting more then anything else.

The 6 day battery test is his only option if he does not have a meter. If the battery is sealed the hydrometer is out of the question.

I took his case and assumed that he had no tools.

2 ohms on a piece of wire about 2 feet long is garbage the resistance should be fractions on an ohm. You and your hints... do you think your teaching me anything by playing your games and giving me hits like im in high school? The way you phrased it didnt make sense. Its a voltage drop across the wire that goes to the block.. it should have alomost no drop, this is not the guys problem because that would be most noticeable when he attempts to start the automobile since the current draw is the highest then. The drop in the wire (if bad) would be so great that the starter could not turn the car over.

That is not his problem, why even go there?

Explain in this case what that will prove? He said the battery starts the car fine then after 6 days it wont.

Yes I would because I would have checked for the charging system working.. if it does.. then i would have checked for electrical draw on the battery with the car off. If it seemed reasonable i would have bought a new battery stuck it in and been on my way.

An air bag module is a small electrical circuit... not one that i am familiar with, and also one that has no bering in this case. I have huge doubts that digital circuits are causing enough draw on this guys battery so that it dies in 6 days. Maybe the guy has his radio hooked up wrong or something ... who knows.

Your such a funny guy, I have a clue because I said that im wrong in this case? Or I have a clue because you must be right?

So with somebody like me who does not know much about the electrical workings of a car am i supposed to just sit back and listen to people like you preach how much you know without letting too much information out? As a society i think its better that we share as much information as possible, in a nice way. For me to know as much as you do on the electrical aspect of an automobile.. it may take me an hour or two and a good shop book showing some schematics.

If I may ask tom .. where is your background? Did you go to school?

Ken

Reply to
Ken Gallo Jr

This just shows the world that you know nothing, college boy or not. The maximum voltage you could ever get on car electric's (other than spark voltage) is 15!! What's this 480V??? In my career, I was an electronics and software engineer for 10 years, and have been a quality assurance engineer for the last 15 years dealing with military electronics, and have used that knowledge to sort many electrical problems with a series of old cars that I have owned.

And in case you didn't know, and clearly you don't, DVMs measure current by measuring the voltage across a shunt resistor!! The shunt resistor is built in the meter. You change the scale of the current measurement by changing the value of the shunt resistor.

Seems to me that this is not tips for the news group but a personal argument between Thomas and Ken, neither knowing what they are talking about.

Ken, are you listening? The input resistance of the car with the battery disconnected is irrelevant and any conclusions drawn from any measurements taken from it are erroneous for reasons already stated.

I'll think that I will bug out at this point. Over to you guys!

Richard

Reply to
Deadly

???

No they dont, but i do not know what the automobile contains as far as circuits go. I said measure the input resistance of the automobile.. I still do not know why this wont work for finding a shorted part or something in a circuit somewhere thats not right. When we have a power problem on PC boards we measure the input resistance of the power supply (and it works) its simply a test ... maybe there is something shorted so far down the line that it looks like a few hundred ohms... at least that will show up on the resistance check.

Im not being sorced anywhere... my focus of study was on small circuits (IC's and the such and microprocessor controls) Not on larger equipment (alternators, generaters etc...) Maybe the educatinal system is falwed... as a matter of fact i know it is.. i see people graduate who truly know nothing about the field they studied.

Ever hear of sarcasim?

and yet 12.66V is 100% ... interesting.. how close is the meter you are mesureing with? Maybe its not a fluck87 maybe its a radio shack hunk o crap and is off by 20%

So charge it some then do a load test.

On batteries where you can get to the electrolyte expect it to be altered. Its alwas been the case with the batteries i deal with.

That was not a guess... the battery is 3 years old, it is suspect to be a problem, get a new one to eleinate that from the picture.. you need one anyway.

Could be a shot battery. Cant it?

If he left the battery open for 6 days and it did not start the car it was a usefull test.. he should go buy a battery.. but he already did that since the battery was 3 years old anyway.. so if you listened to me in the first place the problem may have already been solved.

Where do you shop?

6 minutes does not give you 100% proof of anything.. stop kidding yourself. explain to me what tests you do in 6 minutes and ill give you flaws in those tests.

I do but the way it was worded was incorrect... he made it sound like i should measure the drop in the chassis. Not a real useful test.. if he said the drop in the wire that goes from the battery to the block then it makes more sense.

The way it was worded i had to guess. How did you know it was not the ground of the starter to the engine block mount for the ground? Maybe the chassis has so much rust that it doesnt conduct anymore (HAH)

What will checking the voltage drop in this case prove.... the guys car wont start after 6 days... if it would never start i would look for ground problems.. you are going in the wrong direction.

Not when a wire is old and corroded do you have a chart for age and enviorment as well... i think not.

although it would be interesting. And explain possibly what is going on.. maybe the guy would measure 20 ohms... what then? He was able to find the problem very quickely.

Sorry temperature will affect it a little much

I think not... your humor as much as it seems hard thought out and applied is useless.

I agree and im sorry i atempted to help a person in need. Ill think twice now when I see somebody stuck in fear that you will come by and bash me. (sarcasim again in case you didnt know)

Give me a schematic of a car and I can troubleshoot with the best of them... I know small electrical circuits.. microprocessors and control systems.

I have no fear of the soup kitchens.. I already am part of a business that treats me well. As a matter of fact im going on the road to prove to our customer that the problms they are having is theres and not ours. It only takes a scope to do so.

Explain to me why the input resistance test is useless i want to know from a professinal such as yourself.

Ken

Reply to
Ken Gallo Jr

The 480V was to prove a point... they said to measure resistance of a live circuit... you cant. Unless you do calculated resistance.

Gee you dont say my god another genius. What happeneds when the current is so great that it burns the hell out of that flyturd shunt you got in that meter?

Its safer for the meter to use an external shunt and measure voltage drop across that shunt for measureing high currents.

And what did you contribute to this poor guy in need?

What reasons?

not if the input resistance measured is some very low value. Maybe there is a short that drains the battery down to nothing.

I expect that you wont come back.. you just like to get your 2 cents in and try to say something then leave when you know your arguments cant hold water.

Ken

permanently

Reply to
Ken Gallo Jr

Reply to
Ken Gallo Jr

The normal range is 12.60 to 12.75 on a fully charged battery that is stable. With a key off drain, which every car will have the voltage can be seen as low as 12.55. 12.50 on a stable battery is a in a low state of charge, this is especially true if the vehicle has been in use, which the overwhelming majority are. Possible reasons? Driving time not long enough to bring the battery to a full state of charge after a cold start. Battery cable terminals loose or corroded. A higher than normal ignition key off drain exists. Excessive starter motor draw. Defective or old battery. High resistance in the chassis ground circuit. High resistance in the charging system (+) power side.

That is only a few examples.

Although similar devices, a capacitor is not a battery, so it will not function as one. Real bad analogy.

If the plates are shot, and some one changed the electrolyte, the OCV will still show up as a red flag. The load test will confirm, so will the bounce back voltage. No matter how you look at it, a bad battery is very easy to find, no ned to wait 6 days.

Unless the battery is a gel cell type, It is not a maintained free, it's only called that to sell to people like you. Yes the cell covers can be removed. That's why it is called a low maintained battery. The true "maintained free" batteries generally cost quite a bit more than the main stream low maintained battery. But because you brought up the use of "maintenance free" batteries, they even need maintained.

That was just a thrown out number, the importance of the ground is still the key.

to start the

That's where you go wrong, there are a number of sensors that rely on a good ground to be correct. The voltage drop is a valid test to understand the total health of the electrical system. The voltage drop on a cold engine is 0.10 volts, more indicates a degrading ground. 0.20 and up is a bad ground. It will ohm out quite nicely, meaning you would miss it.

To take it farther, the battery ground while cranking the engine has a specified allowable voltage drop. Again something you can miss using an OHM meter. Does the voltage drop change cold to hot? Yup, there allowable specifications for that as well.

A bad ground can be the cause of many problems just like this one. The battery state is only a symptom.

A battery that is always in a state of being overcharged will most certainly do exactly what this guy is talking about. Just by the condensation of the electrolyte on the battery is enough to cause current to flow to ground, that will discharge the battery over a few days. Add that to a battery that has been discharged more than it was designed to handle.

If you know electricity, the car system should be easy. It is not an "advanced" form of electronics. Yea, more wires have been added, more computers added, more logic modules added, but the basic fundamentals are the same as any electrical device. The only difference is a TV does not go through the extremes in climates and conditions a car does.

Yes I did. Am I an EE? Did I study EE courses? No. So that should mean that I should not be able to hold a candle to any amount of knowledge you have on electricty.

Reply to
Thomas Moats

In article , "Ken Gallo Jr" wrote:

When someone posts "I really don't care," it usually indicates that they do. Thanks for confirming.

Then why in the name of Gary Glaenzers grandfather would you think to begin to offer advise? By your own admission in another post, you've never even seen an automobile electrical system wiring diagram.

Because it is a meaningless test that I'd be frought to find a specification to compare to. IOWs, it's a "how many bubbles are in a bar of soap" question.

You measure input resistance -of- a power supply and because that works for that particular application expect that to be a valid and equivalant test to use on an automobile, bearing in mind that the test you recommended is 180 degerees different in what it is you're measuring (supply vs. consumer)?

The day isn't over.

Basically, the throw away stuff, where if changing the CMOS battery doesn't fix it, it gets shit canned.

You do realize that if the above sentence were part of your fourth grade final exam, you'd be taking the year over, don't you? Yes, the educational system is very very seriously flawed.

Why yes, yes I have. Too bad [yours] wasn't an example.

Went a "googleing" did ya?

How close is the meter that *I* am measuring with? As a matter of fact, it would be a (in no particular order) Fluke

87, and a Fluke 77, and a Fluke 12B, and a Tektronics 5103 analog oscilloscope, and a Pico scope, and a UEI 7100 DSO (Sun LS-2000), and a MT-1560 AVR, and a MT-3000 DSO/engine analyzer. Then again, I don't know that a Rat Shack VOM -is- off by 20%, matter

of fact, I seem to remember reading over in one of the sci.electronics groups that even the real cheap >

Bravo! You learned something, on a holiday no less. Stick around and you'll gain some useul skills that very well may come in handy when your EE job is farmed out to some third world shit hole to someone making 25 cents an hour.

And this was made apparent by the original poster in which message?

The ones that you test with a "specific gravity sucker?"

Gee, I just replaced the 7 year old battery in my truck about 3 weeks ago, do you suppose that because it lasted 4 years longer than what you promote here, that it was defective? Should I change out the 5 year old battery in my wifes car even though it tests out fine?

Sorry, we don't know that for sure. Three years old doesn't equal a dead battery automatically.

Think about this... All the OP knows is that -after- six days, the battery was dead. for all he or we know, the battery actually went dead after one day, or a day and a half, or two days, all symptomatic of a key off draw that shouldn't be there.

A half assed approach no matter how you slice it. He could very well still have a problem that is being masked by the fresh battery only to find out at a very inconvienient time that it's still there.

For groceries, at 'Pick & Save.' For clothing, usually either Kohls department store, Boston Store, or Marshall Fields, although I did get a very nice Kuppenheimer suit at Sears once. Actually, I've been heart broken since Hughes and Hatcher closed up and moved out, but that was 25 years ago.

(in no particular order) Open circuit voltage test. Running voltage test. Load test. Starter draw test. Cranking compression test. ey off draw test. Alternator diode test (leakage and short) Alternator ripple test. Two - three pieces of test equipment (depending on mood and what's out on loan), one electrical connection to be un-done. Cake.

All easily done in less that 6 minutes without breaking a sweat, and so far, after 34 years, have yet to fail in making a >99% accurate diagnosis in determining a problem, unlike your input resistance test which would render useless information.

Hmm... I was able to understand what he was describing.

You don't, that's why you make voltage drop tests. VDing the negative cable would be the first step, VDing the block to starter might be the second step, but just because it hadn't been mentioned yet is not cause to discount what Thomas was teaching.

The chassis is not part of the starter circuit. If it is, the EE or any other culprit responsible should be taken out and beaten, shot, hanged by the neck and castrated, his remains to be fed to syphlitic vultures suffering from PMS.

If the negative battery cable is part of the charging circuit (and I can't think of a case where it isn't) and there exists a significant voltage drop on that cable, isn't it entirely possible that the battery is only recieving a partial charge, and given that maintance free batterys are very sensative to charging voltage to begin with, couldn't *that* also be a reason for his depleted battery? i.e., the battery that should be charged at

14.6 volts in a cold climate condition is really only recieving 13.8 volts and is not being fully replenished due to a .8 volt drop across the circuit? Shooting from the hip is all nice and glamerous, but I've known Thomas here for enough years to say that he certainly prides himself in being thorough in his diagnosis.

Precisely the reason for performing voltage drop tests on all related circuits and cables, ground cables especially.

You have got to be joking. Yeah, what then? Call ford and ask them what 20 ohms means? Would you actually shame yourself in public that way?

Thank you for admitting that your input resistance measurement is meaningless. After all, the problem could be nothing more than the trunk light staying on. Trunk light being a bulb whose input resistance is "affected a little much" by temperature.

As is your logic as applied to this problem.

Based upon your age, it is certain that you are a product of "outcome based education' where it doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong as long as you feel good about your answer. To which I say; PBBBBBBBBTTTTT! FOOEY

Yeah, so? This means they are immune from the effects of medeocrity and complacency how?

Well, good luck. i hope you're more adept at it than something as simple and basic as a car battery and starter circuit.

A vehicle electrical system is a combination of series and parallel circuits consisting of PN junctions, resistive loads, inductive loads, capacitive loads, etc. While I'm certain that it would be possible to calculate some sort of value to apply to the input resistance, that value would rapidly begin to change as the components and circuitry degrade from environmental effects, not to mention vibration and component tollerance (it is a car after all). Calculating the initial value could only be imagined as a monumental task that in practice would serve no useful purpose, especially considering that better and more useful information can be aquired by other more simple means. As you admitted yourself, the raw resistive value of a lightbulb has little to do with its actual operating value because of inherent variables. You really don't know if this persons problem is the result of a mercury switch that is shorted leaving a courtesy light on, a seat belt retractor relay that is frozen closed, a shorted PN junction inside an alternator, a flakey micro circuit inside the radio memory, the second hand of his dash mounted clock being jammed on the minute hand, a leaking diode inside the starter solenoid, the EEC relay being stuck closed or any of two hundred other malfunctions that are possible. What is even more ridiculous is to believe that any of the above "X" factors can and would have ever been applied to some mythical formula for input resistance with any kind of meaningful results expected.

If it makes you feel any better Ken, there is a rather large electric motor manufacturing facility owned by a very large conglomerate six blocks from my shop, it is chock full of highly educated EEs who understand as little about an automobile electrical system as you do. Lucky for them, they do know how to dial a telephone.

Reply to
Neil Nelson

I can tell you with 100% certainty that in *all* cases such as this, the only piece of test equipment needed is your nose. You WILL smell the smoke from the melting insulation.

Reply to
Neil Nelson

Hooray!!! Someone else is talking sense. Very well done Neil, you are absolutely correct in what you say (not that I need to tell you that as you seem to understand PN junctions and how to cope with their vagaries) .

The problem is either the battery or the vehicle. Forget how old the battery is, its irrelevant - have you never bought anything new that's bust? Also, whilst 12.5 volts is a good indicator, that's all it is. You can't tell what's going on inside the battery. I had a battery, 2 years old, that would only hold its charge for about 2 days. Not start the car over a weekend and forget Monday morning! yet it would start the car every consecutive day. Change the battery and problem solved.

But the problem could be a steady drain on the battery. If you have a clock in the car, a car alarm, etc then you will always see a small current draw. With a trunk light with a faulty switch, a fused PN junction in any electronic device that is permanently connected to the battery (e.g. alternator) then a minor fault in any of these may cause a few hundred milliamps to be drawn and therefore drain the battery in a few days. If you have a major component failure drawing more that a few amps then a fuse will blow or if unfused the car catches fire.

So, do the following to identify where the problem is:-

  1. remove the ignition key,
  2. remove the +ve lead from the battery,
  3. put a meter between the battery terminal and the lead just taken off and read the current.

If the current is more than a few tens of milliamps then there is a problem somewhere with the vehicle and follow Neil's very sensible advise to identify where the problem is. If the current drawn is less than about 20 milliamps then changing the battery will fixed then problem.

And don't trust any battery over 3 years old, especially in winter time, and lets hope we all get 7 years out of a battery like a previous writer.

Richard

Reply to
Deadly

too bad my news server stinks... I dont have copies of all the posts that are part of this thread...

Im wondering did the original person who asked the question ever get anywhere?

One thing i wanted to say is the equipment I work on is by no means throw away. Each control unit costs our customer over 10K the boards are replacable but also repairable.

Oh well... it was a fun run we had,

em that is being masked by

Reply to
Ken Gallo Jr

I`ve once seen a car have the same problem and could not figure out what was causing it to drain battery . come to find out like 2 months later we did figure it out!!! the car was parked on an inclined driveway. and the hood light was a merc switch. so car parked uphill in the driveway made the light come on which killed the battery. car was in flat level bay . there was NO problem.

Reply to
SPOLIK

Reply to
Thomas Moats

Reply to
SPOLIK

Reply to
Thomas Moats

seriously the incline is like 70 to 80 deg. car would sometime bottom out . it is a driveway between to close houses to get to the basement apt. the road is a hill to start with the an old 3 story house in town.

Reply to
SPOLIK

Reply to
Thomas Moats

Look very closely at your battery cables! Ford products are very prone to corrosion INSIDE the terminal itself, not visible, where the cable connects to the terminal. This presents a high resistance to the charging voltage and may prevent the battery from receiving a full charge. Eventually a vehicle with this problem will not start. Movement of the cable while cranking sometimes will loosen this corrosion and allow the vehicle to start. Replacement of the positive cable is a quick and inexpensive method to eliminate this as a possible cause of your problem. Replacement of the negative cable is a little more involved, but normally the negative cable "outlasts" the positive cable by several years. Good Luck!

Reply to
Harley Guy

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