Yeah, you said to look in the Department of Commerce web site. I did. There
is nothing about the domestic content and VINs there.
Tell us the URL where it is found.
The truth is that the only place it is found is in Mike's imagination.
It should be in your history. Both Firefox and Internet Explorer have keep a
history of all the sites you have visited. Of course, you would have
actually have had to have found proof to back your claim for this to work.
No for me. I use a laptop, via satellite to reach a server that is connect
to the PTD.net ISP, that provides my connection to the NGs. My history,
cookies etc are deleted automatically, when sign off. Emails sent to my
mailbox on that server are automaticly deleted after 24 hours.
I choose to believe what I have evidence for. I have no evidence that the
first digit of the VIN means anything other than the ramblings of an old
So I believe that the VIN has nothing to do with content, only location of
You have been invited several times to support your claim. You can't or
choose not to.
Vehicles built at Toyota's first plant in the country, NUMMI in
California all get a "1." Vehicles built at the Toyota Motor
Manufacturing plant in Kentucky get a "4." Vehicles built at the
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Plants in Indiana and Texas get a "5". It
is that simple. It has nothing to do with the domestic content of the
vehicles built at those plants.
Here is something else for you to chew on - Titians and Frontiers get
a "1" for the first digit. Quests, Armadas and Xterras get a "5." The
Domestic content is nearly the same for Armadas and Titans . How do
you explain that?
BTW, US built Sentras get a "3." US built Altimas get a "1". US built
Maximas get a "1" Guess what, Maximas don't count as domestic
vehicles, and Altimas do. Why do they both get a "1."
You keep telling people to search for the proof to prove you right.
Well I have searched and IT DOES NOT EXIST. Telling people to search
for nonexistent proof is dishonest. If you had any proof at all, you
would have provided it long ago.
Ed, you're mistaken there, buddy. Bonehenge owns a 2005 Tacoma
made at NUMMI in Fremont. The VIN of his Tacoma starts
with a 5--not a 1.
Not everything coming out of NUMMI begins with a 1 like you say.
You are correct, all the Toyota Trucks assembled in the US get a "5".
The trucks assembled at NUMMI are "5T" Cars assembled at Nummi aren
"1N" It seems that Toyota uses the "5" in the first location to
indicated the vehicle is a truck (just like Lincoln does).
Ed, I was going to let things smoothe over between us, but you
refuse to let me do so.
Once again you are not correct. You write, "It seems that
Toyota uses the '5' in the first location to indicate the vehicle
is a truck (just like Lincoln does)."
Toyota does Not use a "5" in the first VIN position to indicate
a truck. You will also find a 5 leading the VIN for Sienna minivans
assembled in the Princeton, Indiana plant. "5" also leads VINs
for Sequoias assembled there. That plant, by the way, is
indicated by the letter "S" found in the eleventh position.
Your favorite Toyota factory (a joint operation of GM and 'Yota)
is indicated by a "Z" in the eleventh position. The "Z" refers
to NUMMI in Fremont.
There's no reason to use the first VIN position to indicate
a truck, because charactes 4 through 9 (right after the WMI)
comprise the "Vehicle Descriptor Section."
Ed, I will let this debate go as long as we both recognize that
Mike Hunter's assertion regarding the first VIN position has
not yet been definitively disproven :-)
Considering that there is not a lick of evidence that Mike's conjecture is
true, no documentation of it in the US code or any website, and much
information that is inconsistant with it, it is effectively disproven.
As far as CAFE is concnerned, Siennas, Sequoias, Tundras, and Tacomas
are all light trucks, and amazingly, they all get a "5" for the first
digit. Maybe this is just a coincidence. Navigators and Lincoln Mark
LTs are also "light trucks" and they also have a "5" for the first
digit. Why don't they get a "1" since they are clearly domestc
vehicles? Mercury Trucks (Mariner, Mountaineer) get a "4" as the first
digit. Why don't they get a "1"? They are clearly domestic vehicles as
I don't think there is a rule that requires Toyota or Ford or Lincoln
or Mercury to use a 1 or 4 or 5 to indicate the type of vehicle or the
plant where it was built. The first three digit taken as a whole
identify the manufacturer. Many manufacturers have multiple WMIs.
These are assigned by the SAE. There is an easily found list of Ford
WMIs and how they are assigned. None of the Ford WMI are assigned
based on domestic content. Although Wikipedia has a list of Toyota
WMIs, there is not clear list showing how Toyota uses them. By looking
at VINs for various Toyta models you can determine the following:
1N - Nummi built cars (Corrollas)
5T - Toyota USA manufactured Light Trucks (Sequioas, Tundras, Tacomas,
4T - Toyota USA manufactured Cars (Camry, Solara, Avalon)
The third digit has some relationship to the body style. There are
lots of different third digits for trucks, not so many for cars (as
far as I can tell the third digit for all Camrys and Avalons is "1").
There are no "1T" Toyotas as far as I can tell (but plent of "1Ns").
Why is this the case? I don't know. But I do know that the domestic
contnet labels for several Toyota models show 75% or higher domestic
content. If the rules required that the first digit indicated domestic
contnet, I would think these vehicles would have a "1". Likewise
Lincoln LTs which have a 90% domestic contnet, would have a "1" as
well, instead of the "5" they actually have for the first digit.
So here is the way I see it:
1) Just comparing domestic contnet labels and VINs suggests there is
no relation ship between VINs and domestic conntent
2) No one has ever provided any evidence that there is a link between
domestic content and VINs. Mike Hunter has alluded to the existence of
such a link, but has been unwilling to provide a verifiable reference
despite being asked for this repeatedly.
3) If such a link existed, why is it so difficult to find any evidence
4) I think Mike Hunter dreamed up the link and is too stubborn to
admit he was wrong.
And? If you go to the Toyota Fleet VIN Decoder (http://
fleet.toyota.com/html/vin_decoder.asp), they claim that at a "1" in
the first position of the VIN indicates NUMMI built vehicles.
For Position 1 - 1 = USA:NUMMI, 4 = USA: TMMK (Kentucky), 5 = USA:
TMMI & TMMCA (Indiana and California)
It is pretty obvious that this VIN decoder is not up to date since it
won't correctly decode some newer VINs and does not address the new
plant in Texas.
That may be ture, but as far as I can tell, all current USA assembled
Toyota "Light Trucks" (Light Trucks include Vans and SUVs) get a 5 for
the first digit.
Hard to prove a negative. No one, not you, not Mike, has provided any
evidence that the first digit has anything to do with domestic
contnet. Don't you suppose if this was true there would be at least
one easily found refernce that confirms it?
Mike treats his wild speclation as if was true becasue he said so. He
makes vague references to unfindable documents. When he is challenged
on this, he says something like "I am not going to do your research
for you." Clearly he doesn't have any proof of his claim and is just
trying to avoid admitting it is merely his speculation and not a fact.
Mike Hunter said his engineer friend told him about the VIN content thing.
So he might not have dreamt it up. Not that it matters.
I concur that he is too stubborn to admit he is wrong.
I have admitted I am wrong many times. I even got the type of weight on
wheels wrong (I said aluminum instead of lead. Oopsie - Big brain fart
But it is to find evidence that this conjecture of Mike's is wrong. Like the
Lincoln and Mercury trucks/SUVs and their VINs. Unfortunately, there is no
affordable master list of all the VINs. SAE has one, but it is too
The fact that the first digit of the VINs are 1, 4 and 5, rather than 1, 2
and 3 is consistant with the 4 and 5 were added on later, as the US ran out
of WMIs. Otherwise, the US would 1, 2 and 3, and Canada and Mexico would be
4 and 5.
Had the internet been widely used back in the 80s (yeah, I used it college
and grad school then), and newspapers were on it back then, there probably
would have been documents on sae.org as well as newspaper articles about the
new assignment of the first digit of the VINs. But, the archives are
incomplete going back that far, at best. And the avaiable sources, like
wikipedia are incorrect or misleading, too.
Of course, if the VINs reflect content, there should be easily found
documents about this too, in the US code, the Transportation Department or
SAE, but, there aren't any.
The bottom line is that the VINs don't reflect content. That's why there is
so little evidence.
True, but all the Corollas are "1NX." The WMI is not just the first digit,
or the first two digits, it is the first three digits taken as a whole. I
have wondered if the reason that there are no 1T US built Toyotas might not
be the result of another company being assigned the "1T" before Toyota. The
SAE maintains a completel list of WMIs, but they don't give it away. I think
that it is entirely possible that "1T" was previously assigned, just like
NUMMI got the 1N. Nissan still uses 1N as well, but the third digits are all
C. E. White wrote:
> ...but the third digits are all different.
Yeah, the third *character* has to be different
since WMIs have to be unique, but the third
*character* is not always a digit, as you mentioned
A little sloppy, but acceptable :-)
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