I am really sorry this has gone so far. Chrysler was an innovator in auto
but succumbed to a lousy quality reputation, among other things.
GM was not so far behind.. GM was capable of putting out vehicles on par
in the world, but chose to use tinfoil instead of steel, plastic instead of
metal, and bullshit
instead of substance.
Can either recover? I dont think Chrysler can. Mercedes couldnt breathe
life into it,
and I think Fiat is not likely to do anything substantial.
GM? They COULD pull it off, if they can get their production costs under
their arrogance out of play, and their management working to build something
American public will buy.
I have bought two new cars in the last two years.. Neither is a GM nor a
If they want popular support, then they have to get their shit together
GM & Chrysler will be lucky if they survive. Forget about being #1 or #2 or
#3 or #4 or #5....
While chapter 11 is neccessary for the monsterous amount of debt and fantacy
obligations built up over the years, there are still hurtles for the new
1) Brand damage, you can't go around not paying your bills and welching off
the taxpayer and expect the brand to be worth a tinkerbells cold crap. Many
loyal customers are gone for a lifetime.
2) Quality, stuff like plastic manifolds make GM cars a joke for quality.
Pissed off even more customers with $1600 fixes. I wonder whose brainchild
that was? Lets face it, GM made good vehicles, once upon a time. But not
3) Culture, the cause of GM & Chrysler still has the loser entitlement
culture abet in smaller numbers. They most likely will be back in bankrupt
mode inside of 3 years even with a clean slate. Even the unions state they
will dump the stock ASAP if diluted in a deal.
When all is said and done, the new GM will be a small remarketer for parts
of existing autos, producing a few autos but nothing like before. GM will
exit the truck business, scrap lots of lines not making money and be down to
2-4 models they can make money on if they really clean up their act.
HLS, you should know that GM does build products the American people want to
buy. In fact, GM posted it's smallest sales decline of the year (along with
Ford, and Honda) in April '09. GM and Ford sales dropped around 33 percent,
while Toyota's sales tumbled 41.9 percent. Everyone build good products
right now. Unfortunately, not many can afford them.
I agree with you here, FWIW. My parents always had GM vehicles so
that's the route I went as well all in all, we've done very well.
64 Biscayne 140k miles
67 Bel Air wagon 140k miles
73 Impala 150k miles
76 Chevette 140k miles
81 Chevette 160k miles
84 Celebrity sold at 80k miles
86 Chevette 140k miles
88 Olds Delta 88 presently 105k miles
91 Cavalier 105k miles (T-boned)
92 Cavalier sold at 105k miles
96 Beretta traded in at 33k miles
96 Corvette presently 16k miles
96 Beretta presently 140k miles
With the exception of those sold, traded or wrecked, these cars were
all given minimal maintenance by my father, and always ended their
lives driven very hard by one of 3 teenage boys for the last few k
I maintain my cars much better, and am quite happy with the four I've
I've gotten as mad at GM as anyone over their gasket problems, plastic
plenums, etc. but the fact remains that they've been really good cars.
I'd buy another GM as soon as my current Beretta finally dies, but GM
has gotten me really apprehensive with their seemingly less than
honest behavior lately.
My biggest problem is unrelated, though. I made the mistake of
wasting loads of time and money getting a BS in electrical
engineering. Now those jobs have all gone overseas.
Also, my mother has had a few bouts with cancer and now has macular
degeneration so I must care for her so I can't work. (I accept no
assistance from the government for the record).
I'd probably go with another GM if the Beretta dies, as I said, but
cost is becoming an increasingly big issue for me, as I believe it has
and will continue to grow for others as well.
Just my thoughts....
Indeed they did. I presume they let the bean counters get ahead of
the engineers. Too much of that everywhere in this country lately,
I fear you are spot on regarding that. It really is getting scary
Many thanks for the kind words. They mean a lot to me. As an adult I
realized just how much my parents sacrificed for their three sons, and
I couldn't imagine turning my back on my mother in her time of need.
Putting my life on hold is the least I can do to help her.
Again, many thanks.
One thought about GM did cross my mind, though. I can tell you the
one thing I will NEVER do is buy one of their cars that is imported
I find it sad and a bit disgusting that they have the nerve to even
consider doing that.
I fully realize that we're in a global economy nowadays, and if they
don't do that and all other manufacturers do, then GM will not
I have no problems with anyone else buying the car they believe is the
best value for them. I know money is tight and just because a car is
manufactured in the USA doesn't mean it is the best fit for everyone.
However, I seem to be in the minority these days. I'm a US citizen
and I would like to see the USA not only survive, but thrive.
A great uncle of mine was killed in WWI. Two others fought there and
returned home. My mother's cousin was killed in the Battle of the
Bulge in WWII, and my father served in the Pacific in WWII. I also
had an uncle who was a B-29 instructor pilot during WWII.
While I have not been in the military, I'd still like to do what
little I can to support this country so that the service and sacrifice
of those mentioned above (and countless others) was not in vain.
Whenever I am shopping for tools, I look for "Made In the USA."
Surprisingly, it is out there if you look hard enough. I always shell
out the extra $$ for it if I feel it is a better quality product. I
find that almost always it is.
Perhaps I'm a dinosaur, but I have this crazy feeling that we should
look out for one another here rather than selling out to the lowest
bidder. If you look only at the short term, you will lose every time
in the long term.
Thanks for letting me vent.
I find that quite commendable, and I too would attempt to do the same, if I
were in you're shoes.
I feel exactly the same as you do. (Even though I am Canadian, I feel that
the survival of both the USA and Canada rest's with eachother).
It sounds like you have a family history you should be very proud of. I too
had relatives serving in WWI and WWII. Unfortunately, not many people I
talk to these days seem to realize what the soldiers who fought in those
wars did for us.
As I was saying above, most people I talk to these days (both in person, and
on the internet) don't seem to think of the World War's as anything more
then a history class from high school. Too many have forgotten the
sacrifices made. Too many don't even know who we were at war with, or even
when they started/ended. Fortunately, I am starting to see more people
around my city realizing what it is these soldiers do for us, even if it
isn't a pleasant way.
I live near GM's Oshawa car/truck plant, which is also near Canada's
"Macdonald-Cartier Freeway" (or Highway 401), which, on August 24th, 2007,
was re-named the "Highway of Heroes". This highway is the direct route
taken by the Canadian Military convoy, when bringing a fallen solder's body
from Canadian Forces Base Trenton, to the coroner's office in Toronto (the
families of the fallen solider are also in the convoy). Many bridges line
the highway, and each and every time a fallen solider is brought home,
people line the bridges, and even the highway itself. It is truly an
astounding thing to see hundred's of people, flags waving, standing at
attention, and saluting. These are mostly ever day people, but the local
Police and Fire departments are usually present as well.
I've actually had discussions recently with people about buying what I call
"home-made" (as in, Canada or USA built), or foreign products. I too try my
best to find products actually built locally, and the Durham Regional Police
(they cover Oshawa, Ontario, and the surrounding area's) actually use many
Chevy Impala's as there cruisers, instead of the Ford Crown Victoria's,
because the Impala's are built here in Oshawa. Though, I must admit,
certain products are very difficult to find, especially electronics and
computers. As for the extra couple of bucks for a home-made product, I'd
shell it out in a heart beat. Not only is the product built here, but I am
finding the quality of China, and other countries builds to be lowering at
an alarming rate.
I totally agree. One reason I personally 'vent' so much when I see a "GM
needs to go down, along with all the CAW/UAW losers" post is because I can
actually see past the loans, and understand what they do for the nation.
Like I said, I live only a few minutes from GM's Oshawa, Ontario plant, so
ever since GM started laying people there off, I see the pain it causes. I
see it every day, the people without jobs spending all day and night trying
to find one, the people with jobs, wondering if they will have one tomorrow,
and the people on pensions, wondering if it will be there when they wake up.
I have had more family members then I can count work at the actual GM plant,
some have been let go since GM started going down hill, and many are going
out of there minds wondering if the pension they worked (and were promised)
for 30 years, are going to disappear. We are even losing local businesses
one by one, as each GM employee lost kills the town more and more. It was
stated in a newspaper article that for every one line worker, 50 (I could be
wrong on the number, as it has been quite some time) others are employed at
suppliers, and other feeder plants. We need GM. Have they screwed up in
the past? Yep. Have they screwed the customer in the past? Yep. Do I
think they can, and will change, and that they are a needed asset to North
America? You bet. Unfortunately, there are too many people who have had a
keyless entry unit malfunction out of warranty (which GM wouldn't pay for),
or who think GM execs are walking into there home and actually taking money
from there wallets. Or, the classic "Japan makes better quality products"
crowd (I saw many of them change there tunes when the front ends of there
Tundra's started falling apart). Like you said, we need to look to the
future, and I don't know about you, but I want there to be job's left here
for my children, and not just flipping burgers.
GM may be building good products now, but this has not been the case for
long. Just a few years....and this is hard to overcome.
If GM built cars that Americans wanted to buy, they would have the
of market share...but they dont. They have lost market share..
I bought a new car last week. I really wish I could have trusted GM, but I
They have screwed me too many times.
Maybe in the future.
We both know we aren't going to agree on this, so I'm not going to get into
Of course they have lost market share. How many companies sell vehicles in
the USA compared to years ago? My point is, GM still outsells every other
brand. You know I respect you HLS, but I just can't stand it when people
say "If GM were to build products American's want to buy". They sell more
vehicles then any other manufacture in the USA, and that is a fact.
This question has nothing to do with GM, and it's just out of curiosity (I
read your posts asking about different models of vehicles), but what did you
end up buying?
It is every American's right to purchase what they wish, and I don't deny
that. I wish you luck with your new purchase.
Stating GM outsells everyone is like stating you won a cross country running
race after having someone drive you half way. I think they call it
If GM removed taxpayer subsidies and priced them to break even how many
would they have sold?
Being #1 in auto sales is meaningless unless it is sustainable without the
pocket picking free debt ride.
Not everyone.. I think Chrysler has been building shit right up to the last.
Few people want to buy GM and Chrysler now because of the unknowns the
future brings. GM has certainly had an improvement in attitude about
both by GM itself and by the customer.
I've never been a huge Chrysler fan (besides classic MOPAR), but the last
two Chryslers I drove for extended periods of time (a PT Cruiser, and a Jeep
Grand Cherokee), I actually liked a lot. They were both rentals, but I
liked them. The PT Cruiser is kind of like the Pontiac Aztec (you have to
really like the looks to be happy with it), but I found it wasn't nearly as
bad on gas as people had told me, and it was actually comfortable to drive.
The Jeep, I really liked, and even with the lower engine model (compared to
the Hemi in other Jeeps), it was quite powerful, and also wasn't nearly as
bad on gas as everyone had said. But, like I said, these were rentals, and
I only had them for 2 weeks or so at a time.
To quote a famous movie, "the future is not set". We shall see what we
I owned a 97 Dodge Custom Van, up until a couple of weeks ago. It was not
smooth, like a car should be, but after all it was built on a 3/4 ton truck
It had the 318 cast iron engine, and never gave me any significant problems.
I sort of miss the old girl.
A lot of the Dodges I have seen with V6 engines just seem to have a lot of
engine problems. Transmissions on some series were also a problem.
Body integrity was also an issue.
Whether true or not, I see some of these problems as being relics of
Of all my friends and relatives, only one has purchased an "American" car
recently...a Chevy Impala, with which she seems to be pleased. I guess
Ford and Dodge trucks remain popular here. Chevy less so.
Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.