You prove my point.
What is the source of "everything I've every heard"???/? Comsumer
Reports? USA Today? Edmunds? All, (especially back in the 80's and
90's) were well known for slamming American namplates in their
articles/surveys. They seem to be a little more unbiased today, but
only slightly so.
Once again, things such as gas mileage is a tangible thing: it can be
proven through testing, or everyday driving, who gets better gas
mileage. I stand by what I say. Compare apples to apples, GM gets as
good as, or better than, foreign nameplates. They also continue to
sell more different brands of vechicle that get 30 mpg or better than
anyone. These are facts and can be proven.
Quality is a little bit more subjective than gas mileage, but Toyotas'
recalls over the past few years have been in the millions, probabaly
in the tens of millions by now. They have recalled more vechicles than
they have sold the past few years. Any way you slice it, that does not
make them the "king" of quality, or even better than GM.
Peoples "choices" caused many many factories to shut down simply
because they werent selling enough cars to keep the factroy
profitable. The number of jobs gained by foreign nameplates is
substancially less than the number of jobs lost due to shutdowns of
American factories. Also, a higher per cent of parts on these
"American made" foreign nameplates are made overseas, costing even
more American jobs.
They can also CUT US jobs to avoid currencey losses if needed. It
works both ways. Or simply pull out of the states if the countries
ever have a diplomatic falling out. Could happen.
Just a long line in problems they have. A really really long line.
Check it out.
Great point you make here, and one that those like yourself are always
trying to use a car twenty some years old to justify your argument
about GM's poor quality. While I would still defend their quality back
then,the first question that comes to my mind is, "Did you buy this
car new?" If not, how old was it, how many miles did it have on it
when you bought it, and what was the car's condition when you bought
Myself, I owned a couple or so late 80's GM cars, bought new, or
slightly used, and had pretty good service out of all of them.
By "everything I've ever heard", I was referring to people sharing their
personal experiences, and I suppose some reviews here and there too.
You say that Edmunds and others were biased, but you yourself seem
biased. So I'm not sure who to believe.
Yeah, that could be true now (the key phrase about Toyota's recalls is
"over the past few years"), but who's to say Toyota didn't have good
quality in years past? I've known people who owned Toyota Celicas from
the late 70s to early 80s and drove them well into the 90s. My mom had
a 1980 Toyota Celica that she got rid of in 1998, mainly just because
the transmission finally went bad (she had some transmission work done
by a 3rd party once, and she said the transmission was never the same
Again, vilifying the foreign companies for taking away American jobs.
Besides, the same thing can happen within American companies. If you're
loyal to GM, for example, then that means Ford is losing your sales. I
don't think US company vs. US company is much different than US vs.
foreign companies. It's always one company's jobs vs. others.
There's risk with anything. As you say, the foreign companies could cut
US jobs (which American companies could do, too), or they could pull
out; American companies can go out of business, too. I really don't see
that there's a lot of difference whether the company is American or not.
True, we both had bought our cars used. However, my '87 LeSabre had
only 122K miles on it, and its engine started dying at low idle (and
even at speeds under 30mph). I would not expect that from a car with
only 122K miles. However, your argument could be said about any car -
Any car will start to develop problems over time.
Also, I had another point in there, which was that GM changed their
parts very often, so if you had to get some repair work done on your GM,
it's very important to know the precise date it was built so you know
which exact parts you need to order. For example, the brake
pads/calipers could be different, depending on what part of the year the
car was built in.
I'm allowed to be biased. The only iron I have in the fire is I am an
owner of several GM products over the past 30-some years.
Edumunds, and others; however, are supposed to be objective. They are
PAID to be objective. But their bias against American namplates goes
back over 30 years.
Once again I use the following argument.
Any measurement that can be factually used in comparison with American
vs foreign nameplates, the American nameplates PROVE, time and time
again, and have proven for many years, that they are as good as, or
better than, the foreign nameplates.
So, you are saying people should buy Toyotas today, because 30 years
ago they were reliable, even though today, they might be quite so
That's kinda funny, because most GM bashers, including you, use bad
experiences you had 20 or 30 years ago to justify NOT buying GM
products today, even though there is absolutly no doubt that they make
a world class product today in terms of reliablilty.
Something seems a little hyprocritcal here to me.
Not vilfying foreign companies at all. I'm vilifying people who have
bought foriegn nameplates over the past 30 years, costing millions of
American jobs, then justifying it by such untrue things, as cost,
quality, gas mileage, and then the silly "my choice" nonsence.
If you can't see the difference whether a company is American or not,
you have some real issues.
122k miles on it???? K??????????
I thought you said you lived in Oregon.
Is that now part of Canada?????
Here, in the United States, we still use(at least for now) miles, not
Anyway, what is that, maybe 85-90 thousand miles???
A lot of chances for a car to be abused.
Especially if you bought it used with that many miles on it, without
having the car checked out by someone who knows cars.
Not a good argument to use buying a fairly high-milage car, and then
knocking it when something goes wrong.
Most Buicks of that type and year, when taken care of had no trouble
getting 150-200 thousand miles, or even more.
Awwww....c'mon.... "Try us again. ( we've added new chrome )"
R E A L L Y.... we've improved !!
After being repeatedly screwed, ( even 20 years ago )
consumers are wary.
You start to feel like "Charlie Brown kicking the football".
Once you've made he purchase,
that payment book comes due every month
for the next four or five years.....
No matter how many times you've been back to the dealer
for repairs or recalls.
It's an expensive, and memorable lesson.
( sort of like food poisining )
We may not remember our kids birthday,
but we never forget our cars.
I'm sure you can name your best car,
your worst, the most fun, etc. etc.
My first car was a '50 FORD....
held together with baling wire.
Go out cruising on fifty cents worth of gas.
My sexiest car was a TRIUMPH TR3.
Looked great, bit a piece of crap.
You needed a full-time mechanic to keep it running.
Then there was the CORVAIR where the engine
self-destructed shortly after the warranty expired.
Most solid car was a DODGE DART sedan.
Most useful all-around car was a PLYMOUTH Sundance (?)
Ran perfectly 'til about 65K, then seemed to have
a major failure every month.
Best road car was a BUICK Century.
But then I got bit with the ( expensive ) manifold failure.
Some dealers were OK for repairs.....
Others did the best to discourage warranty work,
others tried to make their whole profit in the shop.
OK, I'll bite.
1 First car I ever owned, and I guess my favorite, partically BECAUSE
of that, was, a 1976 Chevy Nova SS. Beautiful red-orange with black
striping. Run pretty well, and got 19 mpg highway. Not bad back then
for a car with a V-8. Very reliable.
2. Best looking, (and I guess, most fun), would be a tie between two
Trans Ams. One was a 1978 Mayon Red with WS6 and the W72 package.
Bought off a friend when it was only a couple years old. Ran the thing
for 15 years. Was pretty fast, and handed well. The other TA is one I
currently own, a 98 model. Black. Ram air.
A really devasting machine. bought it a couple of years ago on eBay
with only 12003 miles on the odometer. In time, it may replace the
Nova as my favorite car.
3. Best all around. My 98 Grand Prix GTP. Black. It is not the
fastest, best-looking, best handling, most reliable, or most fuel
effecient car I have owned, but it certainly is the best all around
combination of these things .Bought it new 11 and a half years ago,
and it still does the job for me. I really love this car.
4. Worst I have ever owned. Easy pick. One of the few times I ever
left GM for another car. I bought an 82 Dodge Charger new. One of the
first cars to offer 50000 mile extended warranty. Good thing it had
it. I used that warranty many times before I got rid of it at 41000
No, actually, that's not what I was saying at all; I don't know how you
got that from what I said. I was merely stating that Toyotas DID have
good quality at one point in time, because you seem to refuse to believe
that Toyota ever built any good cars.
So, you think I am lying about people I've known who have had bad
experiences with GM? You seem to refuse to believe that GM has ever
made any unreliable products, based on your own experience; however,
different people sometimes have different experiences.
That seems a little silly to me, honestly.. All companies, foreign or
domestic, are just trying to earn a living. We all share this planet,
so I'm not sure there's a reason not to support one company just because
they're not from your home country.
Do you know what K means? K means thousand. So, 122k miles = 122,000
And I don't know where you get that I don't think Toyota builds a
decent product. They do. They just aren't an omnipotent vechicle
incapable of never having a problem that some make it out to be. They
have a lot a SERIOUS issues. MAJOR issues that somehow still get
minimized, as opposed to an American nameplate, which, after having
the dome light go out, is called "junk", by American nameplate
bashers. It happens all the time.
Then, after having been called to the carpet, will usually say, "I
never said that", or something to that effect.
Some us call it patriotism. A lot of us here had parents who lost jobs
because of the mindset of the likes of you. But, of course, here is
where the merry-go-round comes full circle, and we get into the
"quality", or "choice" debate again.
K also means kilometers. You know that. You should never had admitted
that. Buying a used car 15-20 years ago with over 120,000 miles, and
then bashing the nameplate because it wasn't as reliable as you
thought is should be,sounds a lot worse than buying a car with 80,000
and having trouble, as I implied when I thought you were using
Of, couse, as has been mentioned many times before, you sound like the
typical GM basher. Bought a high miler many years ago, had problems
with it, and that means ALL GM products ever made must be junk.
You've got to be kidding. Kilometers is commonly abbreviated as km, not
k. Also, I used the word "miles", as in "122k miles" - How could you
have interpreted that as 122,000 kilometers? Have you never seen anyone
write car mileage like that? K is often used to mean thousands - That
has its roots in the prefix "kilo", meaning thousand.
Well, I'd expect a car to last a lot more than 122,000 miles.
And why does it need to be made into a political issue? As I said
before, buying GM means that other American companies will lose your
sale, too. Anyone can lose their job due to lack of sales, whether the
company be American or not. Bringing politics into it just brings it
into a whole new level, and I'm not sure I see the point.
Of course, in some circles,(evidence appears you may be in one), it is
politically incorrect to be patriotic.
Just hope I didn't offend you.
In today's America, that is the most gosh-darned dastardly deed one
Second worst offense is flying an American flag in Berkeley.
Now, I just went political.
I consider myself patriotic; I guess different people show it in
different ways. And my thing with politics is that I guess I often
don't really understand politics.. Regarding flying an American flag in
Berkeley, Berkeley is in California, which is part of the US, so I don't
know what the offense of flying an American flag there would be..
You've lost me on that one.
I think Toyota does better on the pricing as too many people have been
burned with GM/Chrylser and other domestic screw ups.
They do and still do.
Nope, ignore customers and they don't come back or demand a much lower
lower price next time as your quality sucks.
But this time it is also about brand damages and morals.
Why should a Californian pay for a GM? GM bailout that is. California,
as well as 48 or so other states get the Obama auto corruption debt and
GM gets $60,000 per auto in 2009 as a subsidy.
People should walk away from GM on principle. Get too many GMs on your
paycheque and you might as well not go to work. GM, they keep on sucking.
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