I guess my point is (in the example) that if it took longer than 7 years for the problem to manifest itself (albeit it STILL happened) and the car still had under 150k by that time...even though you shelled out big bucks to get it fixed (because the car was still overall solid) you're SOL, right? Still doesn't seem fair to me, but maybe this damn cold still has my head cloudy and I don't "get it" yet.
BTW, could you roll a head gasket job into this as well? I've heard of a lot of situations, thanks to the lower intake manifold gasket going, that the engine would overheat, thus blowing the head gasket, and sometimes, the heads themselves needing a trip to the machine shop.
I haven't heard or seen any such situations. The intake gasket leaks are small leaks which cause their own problems, but overheating an engine to this point is a driver issue.
My 2002 Monte Carlo just developed the gasket leak at 55,000 miles
no water in the oil just yet, but you can smell the anti-freeze burning off the engine. I have'nt' looked to see how bad it is just yet, but am keeping the coolent topped off.
Several questions.... do GM dealers recognize that this is a faulty component and are they making repairs at reduced prices ???
How much would I expect to pay for a repair.... gasket replacement only.
Is this a DIY job and if so... how long is it expected to take and will the parts be reimbursed by the settlement ??
Some have. It all depends on how much your GM dealer values you. For the most part they didn't help the customer any.
Gasket kit is around $50 - $75. Felpro gaskets available on the aftermarket are your best bet.
If you're pretty capable with your wrenches, it's certainly within the grasp of the DIY'er. Expect upwards of 8 hours for your first time through this job. Half that after you've done one. Don't get your push rods mixed up! DAGS and you can find procedures on the net for doing the job.
Another question that just came to mind. Should I be using Dex Cool at all, given that there is enough evidence to justify a class action settlement, or should I move to the all purpose Prestone ??
Damn, I bought the car figuring GM might be trying to improve it's products.. (and Consumer Reports did not mention one darn thing about this problem). Why do I feel ripped off ??
Thanks Mike.... at least it's from the top of the car and not from underneath...
I'll pick a nice spring day... get some fresh air and tackle the job. Might as well, because, seems that chances might be I"ll be doing it again in another
80 - 100 K. ( the residual resale value is so low it doesn't make sense to sell it).
Nothing wrong with the Dex-Cool. Just in peoples minds. Think about this if it was JUST the coolant being the problem why is it that the only engines affected are the same intake design? Why is it that ALL GM vehicles are not suffering these failures?
The problem is the result of a gasket that was a bad design. Made that way due to the regulations the govt. put in place regarding asbestos use. If you look at the design of the engine and the way the gaskets are installed it is real easy to see why they failed. GM isn't the only one with this problem but some of the the other makers used a better gasket design with metal reinforcement. That coupled with the lack of clamping pressure on the gaskets due to the revised intake bolt design cause gasket failure. If you look at the intake bolts you will find that instead of passing through the intake into the head at a 90 degree angle so they apply even pressure across the face of the head/intake interface. Instead they go through at a 45 degree angle and clamp the bottom of the intake tight by wedging it into the valley between the heads. This applies a lot of clamping pressure at the bottom of the gasket with decreasing pressure the farther up the interface area you travel. Think about using a clamp on two parts, if you want even pressure you put the clamp in the center, not at one edge. With the pressure difference the top part of the gasket can move around more than the bottom. The motion of the heads as they heat up and shift and the intakes motion as it heats up also cause problems. What is the result, the gasket fails at the stress line. If you do a bunch of these repairs you can actually stack the failed gaskets and you will find the failure points within 1/2" area on the ends of the gasket.
If you look at the newest design for the gaskets you can see the difference in the construction. When you remove the old gasket look right at the edge of the gasket and you will likely find the cracked section that caused the failure. It sticks out like a sore thumb when you see it.
Good explanation... thanks.... I'll be looking for the failure point and checking old gaskets against newer after market products.
Unfortunately GM has lost a lot of credibility due to the way they allowed the dexcool issue to continue. Maybe they should have explained the problem just as you have... not difficult to understand.
Thanks for taking the time to explain... that helps tremendously !!
Thank you for contacting the legal advice portion of GM newsgroup. As I see it, GM will not only give you free parts, but for your trouble you will also receive a gift certificate to take your family out to dinner. You must, however, drive the family in the GM car to the restaurant.
Real lawyers can charge up to 50% of your portion of the settlement fund, but in my case, just send me the dessert from your dinner.
Done !!! Did you want that cheesecake with Strawberry or Cherry Topping ?? Grand Marinier Liqueur on the side ???
Planning on calling the dealer tomorrow.... just to see if he'll offer any price breaks...
Got my copy of Alldata printed out.... just in case the dealer says all the wrong words like
"No" $700.00 take it or leave it.
I survived 3.1 gasket changes, 3.8 manifold changes... marriage and home ownership. This too shall be a piece of cheesecake.
On the plus side, while trying to gather as much information as I can.... visiting
formatting link
they've just posted a recall for an air compressor due to a possibility of it catching on fire. Looks vaguely familiar... so I head down to the dungeon to take a look.... yupp.... same model Strike Force 3.5HP 4.6 gal dual tank.
Ahhh... you need to take a look at my 2002 Monte Carlo..... Purchased new.
about 6 months after purchase, moisture got behind a piece of body trim, froze and pushed it away from the body. Covered under warranty, I pointed it out to the dealer body shop guy... he said... you'll need to leave the car for a week to get it replaced.
Rear tailight assy... has 3 plastic studs... I noticed mine was loose a few months after picking it up from the dealer (should have checked it beforehand ) one stud was broken off.
It now has 57 K on it.... my remote door locks don't work, 12volt accessory plug ( aka cigarette lighter ) doesn't work, and the lower intake manifold gasket requiress replacement. This is on a 5 year old car driven slightly over 10K miles per year and kept garaged. What's wrong with the picture.
Now I'll have to admit, my cars don't get all that much driving or abuse and they are kept garaged. Also located in the mid-eastern states... we're not in the rust belt or the flood zone, or the oven zone. Kinda mild and temperate. So it's not under extreme weather or off road conditions like you see in all those commercials on TV.
I also have a 1990 Olds Silhouette... almost 18 years old with ONLY 120 K miles which is slightly less than 6.5K per year. Let's see... hmmm
not counting normal maintenance items... tires, brakes. fluid changes
two alternators 600.00 repair power steering hose 400.00 repair rack and pinion 1000.00 repair two water pumps 400.00 repair Intake manifold gasket replacement 800.00 repair
current problems and those not fixed...
blower motor, not working... might be motor, might be control panel. wiper bearing shot, motor control board stops wipers in mid-stroke. heat core started leaking two years ago... I haven't bothered to replace it. rear door latch broken... already replaced once oil leaks from somewhere... haven't figured this one out... might be a valve cover.
At 120K this APV is ready for the junkheap.
my girlfriends 1994 Buick Regal....55 K bought new..seldom used...
not counting normal maintenance items... tires, brakes. fluid changes
My neighbors have honda's and toyota's and volvo's which take a beating (they're soccer mom's with mid size families whose husbands commute in gridlock traffic everyday....)... They give me their deepest sympathy for owning GM cars... they truly feel pity for me.... Their cars work... mine don't simple as that.
My girlfriends former car was a 1984 Honda... bought new and owned until 2002 (which was her daily commute car in a gridlock city where nothing moves ).
not counting normal maintenance items... tires, brakes. fluid changes, which she never did anyway unless absolutely necessary
There's more to the story here. Was this work all done at the same place? Did you do it yourself?
I find it hard to believe that any of the parts could possibly have cost that much! Labor gets expensive quickly if you have to pay to have something done. (It's my opinion that this is especially true at dealerships. Other folks may disagree with me on that.)
I've got a 1990 Lumina Eurosport sitting in my yard that may need to have them done. As much as I may not want to, the car is in really good shape otherwise, runs fine and I'll probably learn something in the process.
If all the speeds don't work, it's probably the motor. Missing speeds are most likely a result of a bad resistor pack.
Instructions for fixing this are readily available. They've been posted to alt.trucks.chevy many times in the past. If you have a soldering iron and some hand tools, you can really fix it.
I've heard of this being a problem on many mini-vans.
Oh, I don't know...if you didn't mind digging into it and spending a little time and money, it could be fixed.
I believe very strongly in the concept that some car maker's products and people don't get along well. ;-)
I've worked on a lot of vehicles over the years, and there are things I like and hate about many popular cars. On the GM front, I think very highly of most of their powertrain setups. I'm not so thrilled with how they rust or the way some things are a real trick to work on. More than one late-80s Buick has been here and running/driving great while the body was rusting off of it. I've got one here now that hasn't seen the best of care over the years, and the body is really rusty, but the powertrain is still strong at over 250,000 miles.
I think I got a pain in the ass car. Along with a pain in the ass dealer. It's like, hey guys I really don't want to rent a car for several days and travel back and forth, while you figure out how to replace a simple piece of body trim.
First alternator was done by a mechanic.... I did the second one myself.
The Rack and Pinion and power steering hose were both done by the same place. Unexpectedly, I brought the van in to have a inner tie rod end replaced. (no flats so it could not be removed while on the vehicle). The mechanic mentioned that when he pulled off the boot, there was fluid leaking, so he changed the rack and pinion. 1 grand worth of work. Not something I was ready to learn while laying flat on my back in the drive.
About 2 months later, the van is losing PS fluid... leaky hose by the crimp joint. I couldn't get in there with a wrench while lying on my back... so back to the garage it went. another 400.00 shot.
We're talking about 125.00 an hour shop time PLUS another 10% of the bill goes to shop charges... ( usually capped at $50.). Personally, I think a mechanic deserves to make a living... some of these systems are pretty complex. Having to constantly learn new skills, repair complex problems and deal with irate people. That's gotta be worth something. A pretty fair percentage of that amount also goes to TAXES... the shop owner pays taxes, the mechanic pays taxes...and YOU get to give them the money needed to share the money with Uncle Sam. I wonder... all told how much money actually goes to taxes. Probably a lot when you consider Fed / State / Local / FICA this is before rent, insurance, supplies, utilities and coffee for the customer. I don't think a lot of that $125.00 goes to the mechanic, plus he probably makes out on some jobs and loses out on others depending upon how often he beats the ' book '.
My previous Lumina APV had the same problem... replaced that one twice.
Forgot to mention the transmission 'chatter' and the broken door latch. Also, it's a 3 speed. Hell on gas.
No idea whatsoever..... I do have a lot of familiarity with the 3.1's and
3.8's so fixing them is occasionally easy. My daughter is driving an MR2 which can be a PITA to work on due to the very tight, cramped conditions.
Thankfully there are many people here on alt.gm who have willingly and unselfishly given me a lot of advice and direction.... Shep, Ian, Mike Marlow, HLS and Steve W. just to name a few.... I am very grateful to them as they've taken the time to explain why as well as what to do in many instances. That's what keeps auto repair fun.... being able to continue learning... and fixing more than you break. In a way... these guys keep me motivated by their tremendous knowledge and expertise.
As a result I've been able to tackle a lot more of the jobs, thanks to the help and support recieved from this newsgroup.
The prices are real, the labor was darned expensive..... and you can see how much it is possible to save by DIY'g. Some things I'd like to try in the future are replacing a rack and pinion, replacing a half axle, and maybe rebuilding a transmission and engine. Just don't want to learn them on an APV.
That's a pricey shop rate. Around here in CT it is closer to $65 to $75. Shop charges are 2%. IMO, shop charges should be built into the price and not a separate line item to bleed a little more money from you.
I do remember being in New York City about 18 - 20 years ago and a BMW dealer had a rate of $98 back then so I imagine it is up at least 25% in that time.
All I can say is my mom drove a 85 Camry that had problems until she dumped it at 80k miles and bought a Chevy. My brothers wife drives a Mazda from a new purhase that has had 2 transmissions before 100k miles.
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