GM & Toyota to Collaborate on Fuel Cells

I thought GM already had a very good hydrogen-powered prototype vehicle.

The world's two biggest carmakers are deep into plans for a joint venture to build fuel cell systems that would enable them to begin making hydrogen-powered cars.

General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. believe that by combining forces they will send a powerful signal to governments and the fuel industry that the futuristic power plants that use no gasoline or oil aren't so farfetched, insiders say.

And California is a potential location for the venture's research and manufacturing operations.

There is no deal yet, and it could be months before a formal agreement is hashed out, said an automotive source.

But the companies already have picked a name for the enterprise: Project Apollo. GM is working on fuel cell development with Sacramento-based California Fuel Cell Partnership, with several Southern California companies and at its own Advanced Technology Center in Torrance.

Toyota's U.S. sales and marketing headquarters and one of its major research and engineering units are in Torrance. Toyota also operates a small fleet of experimental fuel cell vehicles in the state.

The two automakers jointly operate a major auto assembly plant - New United Motors Manufacturing Inc. - in Fremont in the Bay Area.

GM has insisted for years that it will have a commercially viable fuel cell vehicle ready for the market by 2010, and insiders say the company is well ahead of schedule in several key areas. Toyota has been a major proponent of hybrid technology, which combines standard gasoline engines with electric power.

Carmakers see fuel cells as desirable because if they can be perfected, and if a retail fuel distribution system is developed, they would remove the auto industry from much of the debate over air pollution and fossil fuel consumption.

By combining resources, the two industry giants "would have a lot more clout with other decision makers and could help get government and industry more involved," said Lindsay Brooke, an advanced automotive technology analyst at CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills, Mich.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% There are two classes of pedestrians in these days of reckless motor traffic - the quick and the dead. ~ Lord Dewar 1933 ~

Climbing into a hot car is like buckling on a pistol. It is the great equalizer. ~ Henry G. Felsen 1964 ~

Fuel cells HAVE BEEN perfected. The problem is the cost of building them. They must be assembled in "clean rooms" and the cost alone for the number of cells needed today is more than it cost of building a whole conventional powered car. The current cost of hydrogen to fill a cars fuel tank is another problem. It takes twenty minutes to fill the tank at a cost of several hundred dollars. The first thing that needs to be settled is where to put the reformer. At the filling station, or in the vehicle. The second is where to obtain the hydrogen, natural gas, gasoline or some other source. Gasoline is the moat likely source, since the distribution system is in place. The answer may lie in a current GM hydrogen car that actually BURNS hydrogen rather than converting it to electricity.

mike hunt

"James C. Reeves" wrote:

Interesting. Thanks for the insight.

They make small CNG and butane powered ones, though, that have been scaled down to cellphone-sized batteries. They are a lot less efficient, fo course, and do create some pollution, but they are also orders of magnitude less expensive.

snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (Rich B) wrote in news:19236-4288AFD7-274@storefull-

Anyone who believes the automotive industry will deliver a car with an alternative fuel not tied to the oil industry is kidding themselves. It will only happen if we have major government involvement like going to the moon.

Definately not a U.S. based company, but who says that Toyota or some other foriegn company with no love for gasoline other than as a necessary method of fueling their cars won't try?

Toyota is going to be producing hybrid Camrys within a year in a new plant in the U.S. G.M. definately should be worried.

I would love to see hydrogen become the fuel of the future. I have bundles of Air Products stock that I bought back in the sixties, for a relative few dollars a share. They are currently the worlds largest producer of hydrogen and the primary manufactures of the reformer. Leonard Poole and I were good friends. LOL

mike hunt

"James C. Reeves" wrote:

I guess we can assume you read that in some environuts play book. LOL

mike hunt

tango wrote:

snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com:

It comes from 40 years of observing an {I don't give a dam about anything or anybody as long as I can make a big fat salary} attitude in the auto industry. Do you not remember the oil embargo of the seventies and the supposed lessons learned. Evidently not as the auto industry has had 30 YEARS to develop alternative fuels. Look in the mirror sometime and see if you recognize someone who constantly tries to impress people by posting mostly auto company propaganda like anyone gives a crap about that.