Toyota Avalon - what grade of fuel?

Toyota. They print a neat book called "the Owner's Manual." Not only does it have the answer to your question, but it has a lot of important information. You need to read it carefully.

I am quite serious about this. You bought a $30,000 piece of equipment. You need to learn about it.

My car takes high octane fuel, too. But it works just as well on regular. ;-)

According to Wikipedia, the Avalon has the same engine as the ES350, but uses regular fuel. My guess is that the ES 350 will also take regular fuel, but will have slightly lower performance (2% less horsepower and torque), a difference you will probably never notice.

Jeff

Jane wrote in news:e2d8408a-5775-4b11-802a- snipped-for-privacy@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

87 pump octane, otherwise known as "Regular gas".

It says so in the Owner's Manual that came in your glove box. This same document will also tell you how to effectively operate such carnal pleasures as the radio and power/heated seats. You have read this book, no?

Different engine. Different car. Different market.

It's like the difference between Hyundai and Rolls-Royce: Low end, high end. You don't expect the same thing from both ends at the same time.

Have you read the owner's manual to the ES350?

It probably states that you can run 87 octane fuel, but to expect lower performance.

What you should do is run several tanks of 87 octane fuel (run two tanks with Techron initially), and on the last couple of tanks calculate your fuel cost per mile.

Then switch back to high octane fuel and calculate your fuel cost per mile.

If 87 octane runs the car fine, and if your fuel cost per mile is lower, and if the owner's manual says that it's OK to run 87 octane, then run

87 octane.

Just regular gas. 29 to 31 mpg in ours. Great car.

For those perspective buyers who do not yet own the car wikipedia would be a good place to look, becuase Toyota's web site doesn't have that info. The same engine in the Lexus ES needs 91 gas; the same engine in the Avalon can use 87 gas but will develop less power.

Manufacturers usually specify high octane gas because in order for the buyer to get rated horsepower that's what is needed. However, most modern engines should work with all grades of gas. You'll just get slightly less performance with lower octane. That said, I'm not sure about some of the high injection pressure/high compression ratio stratified charge injection engines popping up these days from Europe.

Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires. >

If the car manual says you have an option to use either Regular or Premium "for added performance" you have to do the two tests, running Regular and then Premium over at least a dozen tankfuls of fuel each, and then do your math. To get consistent results try to use the cruise control as much as possible, so it's driven the same both ways.

On some cars the extra performance from running Premium fuel increases the fuel mileage enough (when driven the same) to actually lower the cost per mile. On many cars it's a wash - the added mileage just offsets the price difference but there's no added benefit for normal city driving. And on a few it doesn't improve and you're throwing away money.

But you will notice the improved performance during "spirited driving" while running Premium in an engine that can take advantage of it - stomp on the gas at the onramp meter stoplight, and you're doing the speed limit before you hit the top of the ramp to merge into traffic.

And it will fly up long steep mountainous highway grades a lot faster when the timing isn't severely retarded to deal with Regular fuel.

If the car "calls for Premium" and you run up and down big hills regularly, tow trailers, have a camper on your truck, run around fully loaded, get into stoplight drag-races regularly, or do other things that would qualify as 'severe service' I would say to run Premium all the time. Even though you /can/ use Regular doesn't mean you always /should/, because in severe service no matter how far back the computer retards the timing some low-level knocking is inevitable and will cause long-term damage.

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Several people have suggested that you read the owner's manual, but I'm assuming that you are considering purchasing an Avalon and so do not have access to an owner's manual yet.

You can go to

and compare mileage estimates for multiple vehicles. For example, a 2008 Avalon gets the same city mileage as a 2008 Lexus ES 350 but the Avalon gets 1 mpg better on the highway. Based on the Avalon's recommended regular fuel at $3.23/gal and the ES's recommended premium fuel at $3.44/gal, the Avalon's fuel cost to drive 15,000 miles is $2,204 and the Lexus would cost $2,348, or $144 more, or $12.00 per month. You have to decide if it is worth paying the extra fuel costs to drive the Lexus vs. the Avalon.

Bruce's advice is, as usual, right on. I have tried regular and premium fuel in my Lexus LS and have found that I get slightly worse MPG with regular, so that the cost per mile is within pennies of each other, so I just stick to premium. Even though it feels like I'm paying more for premium fuel, it is a wash.

I won't disagree, but if you're doing the measurements over a dozen tanks per type of gas (make sure the engine is clean!), then the driving styles will even out in the wash.

The dealer will let them take a peek at a manual. If not, they're at the wrong dealership.

I don't think the OP actually owns an Avalon. It appears to me that he owns an ES350 and wants to know if the Avalon can run on regular, which it can. He could have determined this from a number of on line sources. One such is

.

Different than what? Basically just a gussied up Camry at a luxury car price. See

Except in the case of an ES350, you can expect it to do anything a Camry will at a 20% to 30% higher price. The Avalon is a little different than the ES350/Camry. It has a slightly stretched passenger compartment, but uses the same basic engine as the ES350 and the 3.5L V6 Camry. For 2008, they all get the same 6 speed automatic transmission. And for all practical purposes they have the same EPA fuel economy (well actually the Lexus ES350 get 1 mpg less on the highway, but I suspect this is because all the Lexus ES350s have "all" the optional equipment which slightly lowers fuel economy, I suspect a fully optioned Camry would be about the same).

I am not saying Toyota is the only company that badge engineers moderately priced sedans into "luxury sedans" but the ES350 / Camry is a particularly obvious case (another is the Ford Fusion / Lincoln MKZ). I suppose there is some cachet to impressing your friends with your "Lexus" unless they happen to know it is for all practical purposes a Camry with slightly better interior trim (that ironically reduces overall passenger volume compared to a Camry).

As for the original question. I am sure either car will run just fine on regular fuel. The PCM in the Lexus is probably "tuned" to provide optimum performance on premium fuel, but I am sure it will be able to adjust to run on regular (with some loss in performance and fuel economy).You need to check the fuel economy on both types. The difference using regular could be as much as 5% less (depending on driving style). The increase when using premium probably won't cover the higher cost of premium, but it will certainly reduce the apparent saving of using regular. Hard drivers are likely to see more of a difference than gentle drivers, so that should factor into the decision as well.

Ed

"C. E. White" wrote in news:47d92029 @kcnews01:

Yes, but the ES350's Owner's Manual specifies 91 octane, whereas the Avalon's says 87 octane.

This suggests the Lexus's engine has some fundamental difference from the Avalon's, such as a higher compression ratio.

Let's settle this using real science. :-) I have a 2002 Tacoma double cab,

6-cyl auto. Black sand pearl, also known as black. Optional winter floor mats in front. The manual says it should be happy with 87 octane gas. I go to the same three gas stations for the most part. But occasionally, if I'm away from my home area, I'll buy 87 octane from a no-name station, and I'll get some knocking, and not just when I'm really getting on the gas. Just normal acceleration. So now, if I'm buying from a dealer I'm not familiar with, I'll buy a half a tank. If it knocks, there's room in the tank to add some 93 octane.

Now that's science!

When I first got the truck, I was making the same 200 mile trip every couple of weeks, all highway driving with some moderate hills. I found no difference in mpg with different grades of fuel. If there was a performance difference, it wasn't noticeable. I'm not drag racing. I'm just driving. I used cruise control for the flat highways, but not in the hills, for obvious reasons.

I sometimes tow a 1000 boat/trailer. That's about 1/3 the towing capacity of the truck. With 87 octane, I lose 1-2 mpg on hilly roads, and nothing on flat roads. So, for certain trips, I'll use the middle grade fuel. It's an extra $1.60 for a tankful.

Thanks Jeff, but as I said we have a Lexus right now so I don't have an Avalon Owners Manual.

Just to clear things up:

We DON'T own an Avalon yet so I cannot read the Owner's Manual. I tried to find one online but could not.

The Manual for the Lexus ES350 clearly states that it uses "91 octane or higher". While I am sure it would be fine with a lower grade my husband is a stickler for following the manual.

We test drove an Avalon a years ago. We also tested the Lexus ES300. We were going to get the Avalon but the salesguy screwed us and we walked out and got the Lexus. At the time the Avalon was on a par with the Lexus. Even in price. Haven't tried one recently but I assume it's at least as good if not better than it was.

Go to the dealership and ask to see the manual. I did that before I bought my Tacoma truck. It wasn't a problem.

Read it carefully. Older ES manuals specifically state that using lower octane fuel won't harm the engine.

Actually, it suggests more that the marketing people stuck their hands into things and overrode the engineers.

The marketing people have a vested interest in the buyer thinking that he has something "better". And as we all know, public perception is that "premium" gas must be better because they call it "premium"--when the only difference in most cases (except Shell) is octane rating.

Running grocery store 91 or 93 octane gas is probably worse for your ES than running Shell 87.

So why do you think Shell is better than BP, or Chevron, or Texaco? Remember Shell is the company than refined gasoline that destroyed thousands of in tank fuel level sensors because of excess sulfur....

.

I'll bet you the "Shell" gas in Southeastern Virginia comes out of the same refinery as the BP gas in Southeastern Virginia (although I am sure the additive packages are different). GM, Toyota, BMW all recommend the so called "Top Tier" gasolines, and Shell is one of the providers of this type, but not the only. Ford recommends BP (but doesn't require it). And remember that until Chevron took over Texaco, Shell and Texaco gasoline was actually provided by two joint ventures owned by Shell, Texaco,and Aramco (look up Equilon Enterprises and Motiva).

Here are out of date description of Equilion and Motiva:

"EQUILON ENTERPRISES LLC. On January 15, 1998, Shell Oil and Texaco Inc. ("Texaco") reached agreement on the formation and operational start up, effective January 1, 1998, of Equilon Enterprises LLC ("Equilon"). Equilon is a joint venture which combines major elements of both companies' western and midwestern United States refining and marketing businesses and both companies' nationwide trading, transportation and lubricants businesses."

"MOTIVA ENTERPRISES LLC. As reported in the Company's Current Report on Form 8-K filed with the Commission on July 1, 1998, on July 1, 1998 Shell Oil, Texaco and Saudi Arabian Oil Company (Saudi Aramco) jointly announced the formation and operational start-up of Motiva Enterprises LLC (Motiva), a joint venture combining major elements of the three companies' eastern and Gulf Coast United States refining and marketing businesses, including assets previously held by Star Enterprise, a partnership of corporate affiliates of Texaco and Saudi Aramco. Shell Oil has 35 percent ownership of Motiva, and Texaco and Saudi Refining, Inc., a corporate affiliate of Saudi Aramco, each have 32.5 percent ownership of the company (such ownership to be subject to adjustment in the future based on the performance of the assets)."

After Chevron purchased Texaco, they were forced to divest their interest in Equilon and Motiva. Around here, that meant most Texaco Stations became Shell Stations. The gas is still the same as before, even the additive package (referred to before as "System 3" at Texaco Stations).

I think you are fooling yourself if you think Shell gasoline is "special," at least compared to other major brands. And remember, Shell owns the company that markets "Slick 50." It is hard to trust a company that sells that snake oil.

Ed