all those "cites" are just opinion - no scientific background
whatsoever. and with respect to many techs who may sincerely believe
what they say, many don't even have long term relationships with their
own vehicles, let alone those of their customers, so they don't /really/
know the full "before and after". And even if they did, it's difficult
for them to figure out cause and effect - why would they consider
blaming themselves when they can't control what a customer may do to a
car when it's not in their shop?
as for the "science", included in those cites was a comment about
needing to ground stuff if you were able to measure a voltage potential
between the radiator and a meter electrode suspended in the coolant.
seriously, whoever wrote that fundamentally doesn't have the slightest
clue. all that "procedure" will do is measure the electrode potential
difference between the probe material and the radiator material - just
like any other electrolytic electrode pair! an utterly bizarre belief.
anyway, just stick with quality antifreeze formulated appropriately for
your vehicle, distilled water, and a 3-5 year change schedule as
recommended by the antifreeze manufacturer.
My thought was that what all that proved was that the coolant was too
acidic and should have been replaced long time ago.
I would do even better with 2-year intervals. BTW, I've got those
radiator test strips and tested my old coolant with it before the water
valve change and it did indicate some acid level. After the walve change
and subsequent coolant replacement, the strip showed no acid, as
expected. But then I don't know how reliable those test strips are. Do
you have any experience with them?
Oh, on another earlier issue about various oil filter brands ... You
stated that there was a difference between the Japanese and US-made
Honda filters and the Japanese were the good ones. But how do you tell
which one you are getting at a Honda dealer's Parts dept? You also
indicated your preference for Wix filters. Are they better made than the
no, any two dissimilar metals in the presence of electrolyte will have
an electrode potential between them. any thinking that this is a
relevant "test" is to completely not understand what is being observed.
you're always going to have some acid - either because the coolant's
absorbing carbon dioxide from the air over time and forming carbonic
acid [like what happens more rapidly with a head gasket leak], or
because it's in the antifreeze in the first place. different
antifreezes have different passivation systems, and some involve organic
acids. testing for acid is therefore pretty much irrelevant. just make
sure it's a quality antifreeze appropriate to the vehicle, and use
don't think that was me - you don't have much choice if you buy filters
from the dealer.
i don't know about the japanese ones - i've never knowingly had one and
i don't know how you could reliably obtain them - but wix are most
definitely better than dealer supplied "usa" honda filters because their
anti-drainback valves don't fail after a few hundred miles. denso are
another good brand. even the cheap "house brand" woolmort filters [made
by champion labs] are better than honda filters in this regard.
True, but my point was that the less acidic the coolant, the smaller is
the electrode potential, right? So is in an aluminum core that is not
soldered together with different metal as the copper cores are. I've
heard that aluminum cores are welded with laser, aren't they? Of course,
even in case of an aluminum core, the "electrolyte" coolant still is
still in contact with different metals in other parts of the cooling
I switched to buying premixed coolants now.
I was referring to your March 15 comment in the "Crude based or
synthetic oil" thread:
"most people are better focusing their angst on crappy oil filters -
there is some real garbage out there. even oem. usa-made honda oem
filters for instance almost always have defective anti-drainback valves
after just a few thousand miles. even cheapo walmart [champion labs]
filters do better than they do.
wix are the way to go for me."
I thought you implied your approval only for the Japanese made filters
in that quote, though you clarified it in your post below. Sorry for the
Anyway, I was thinkining about a choice between Wix filter or one from
OK then, looks like I'll also use Wix filters in the future.
not really. acids are used in commercial battery electrolytes because
the hydrogen ion is fast moving [thus a good conductor] and doesn't
poison electrodes. but you'll get electrode potentials between metal
pairs with salts, alkalies, as well as acids. now, potentials may
"drift" when using other electrolytes, but that's a poisoning thing, not
so much of an inherent potential difference.
some might be, but that's a very expensive way of making something that
typically sells for under $100 on a cheaper vehicle. much more
commonly, they're just pressed together and the aluminum naturally
sticks - much like rungs to the frame in an aluminum ladder. and most
aluminum radiator tanks are now reinforced polymer, so glues and
sealants are used on that join also.
there's no way to adequately isolate and prevent electrode potentials
because of the different materials used in engine construction for
different reasons. antifreeze protects against corrosion by causing a
very rapid corrosion of a surface, and that corrosion product passivates
it against further corrosion. that's the same mechanism for how
stainless steel and how aluminum resist corrosion in air.
that's the safe way, but undiluted antifreeze and distilled water is
slightly cheaper if you don't mind mixing yourself.
not much of a choice imo.
depending on the physical room you have available, there is an oversize
wix filter that fits many older hondas. you'll find the part number on
google for this group, but it's good to reduce the so-called [misnomer]
"piston slap" cold start noise common on higher mileage hondas.
The FedEx just delivered the heater core I ordered online and it looks
like the fins are from copper, so this core might be entirely made of
Mixing is not a problem, but the trouble getting destilled water is not
worth to me the extra cost of premixed coolant.
I'm not sure I understood you here. Do you mean both Honda and Wix
filters are about the same, or that one is not in the same class as the
This "piston slap" comment intrigues me. I wonder how I would recognize
that noise in my car if it had it and how long would it last. In the Wix
product catalog, BTW, I only saw one oil filter fitting my car, the
#51334. It's pretty small.
the honda is not in the same class as the wix - the honda is much
inferior because of the anti-drainback valve failure problem.
how long would the engine last? hundreds of thousands of miles in the
case of a honda. but the noise lasts a few minutes until the engine
warms up. i don't think it's piston slap - that wouldn't be affected by
having a freer flowing oil filter - this noise is, thus i suspect it's a
combination of rod bearings and reduced oil flow with cold oil.
yes it is - that's the catalog number for the "current spec" honda
filter. when i said to look on this group, i meant look up the oversize
part number i posted before, #51344, not the wix website.
whether or not you can use this oversize filter depends on mounting
location. if it's horizontally fixed to the side of the block, it'll
usually fit. if you have the newer engine with the filter just under
the wheel well, it won't - there's just not enough room, even though the
other filter specs are correct.
OK, that's what I thought you wrote the first time.
Then I don't think my engine has that.
Couldn't it also be from warn piston rings?
The filter for this model is pretty well hidden from view under the
hood, not to mention accessing it. But the little thing I can see, there
may be enough extra room there for a larger filter than the blue one
that's in there right now. So I might go with the oversize Wix at next
oil change even though the specs for it indicate its use to be for
industrial machinery, not passenger vehicles.
i've never heard of ring wear causing a knocking noise.
honda filters are designed to be accessed from underneath. if you do
so, it's a apiece of cake.
it is indeed "industrial" in that it's high capacity and high flow. but
in terms of the critical specs such as thread size and offset, seal
diameter, and bypass pressure, it's identical to the standard honda.
it's particle size is marginally larger than the current honda spec, but
compliant with the old honda spec, so personally, i'm not losing any
sleep over that - especially since it keeps my engine quieter, and i
think that knocking is more of an issue than an extra couple of microns
in soot size that's already below the hydrodynamic separation threshold.
besides, many filters are used across many different types of engines,
manufacturers and machinery. it's like oil seals and bearings. honda
just picked one.
call it whatever you want. it comes when you put your foot on the gas,
and goes when you take it off. it only last a few minutes when the
motor is cold. many of my hondas have done it. while others call it
"piston slap", i don't believe that's a correct diagnosis because of the
difference the filter flow rate makes - and there's no direct oil
channel to the pistons on a honda.
If the filter is blue, has the Honda brand on it, and is sold through a
Honda/Acura dealer, then it's the best you can buy.
15400-PLM-A01 is made by Filtech (in the US or Japan, not sure which).
15400-PLM-A02 is made by FRAM (in Canada).
In the US, you are more likely to come across A01, but may also be sold A02
instead. In Canada, you will only ever encounter A02.
Both are identical and interchangeable in specs and performance, despite
the differences in their actual construction. Both are first-rate filters
which will protect your engine the best for its entire life.
they may be better than some of the really bad ones, but by no means are
they "the best you can buy". by no means - see below.
it' exactly the same in the u.s. tegger. even if you order a01, you'll
be supplied a02 since that part number "supersedes" previous ones. i
can't imagine how you arrive at the bizarre notion that canadia parts
sourcing is independent of u.s. parts sourcing, but hey.
tegger, i keep asking you to do this simple test before you keep
propagating inaccuracies. when you next [recreationally] change the oil
on your integra with the horizontally mounted filter, warm the vehicle
up and then let it stand for 1 hour before unscrewing it. if the filter
is empty, the anti-drainback valve has failed. if it's full, it hasn't.
100% of the honda filters i've used have failed this important test.
100%. wix filters do not. cheapo woolmort house brand filters do not.
denso "original equipment" filters do not.
again, i've bothered to do this testing and comparison - and i know what
i'm looking at. you haven't and you do not. honda filters suck -
that's why it's bad to keep on recommending them, and why honda have
relocated the filters on vehicles like the accord, where the filter is
now vertically mounted with the attachment at the top. that way, even a
failed anti-drainback valve will not leak sludge and particles back into
the oil pan, they will be retained in the filter where they belong.
For a heater core, it matters not one whit whether you use a brass or
aluminum core. Either will work perfectly if of decent quality, and if
This electrolysis thing IS bullshit -- unless you leave your coolant in too
long. Part of the reason your're supposed to change the coolant at specific
intervals is to prevent the mix from losing its corrosion protection, which
loss partly involves electrolysis. Mixing different brands and types of
coolant can also reduce corrosion protection sufficient to cause corrosion
after two years.
I don't know what happened between the two of you. Only a few months ago
you couldn't have agreed more with each other as you virtually finished
all sentences the other started. Kinda' like Cartalk's Tom and Ray.
Couldn't you just both get along again? It doesn't look pretty now.
i've thought about this. here's my position. and this applies to
anyone - it's not personal:
if you have an opinion on something, make sure it's stated as such, not
stated as if it were fact. and if you think you know the facts on
something, be prepared to back them up. if you don't know the facts and
get caught making things up, just suck it up because you should have
done your homework properly in the first place.
i'm an engineer/scientist. to some, i'm annoyingly literal. i have no
patience for people who get so emotionally invested in some story
they've just made up, they fling their teddy in a corner if their
story's wheels fall off. and i've got even less patience for teddy
so, i've contributed technical info to tegger's honda web site in the
past, and would happily do so in the future. but not if it involves
childish games. especially not childish games like sticking your
fingers in your ears and singing "la la la i can't hear you" like he's
been playing lately.
I'm not sure how to comment without you venting at me next time, so I
can see why tegger might not want to respond: it could start a flame
war. As to your engineering/scientific contributions here, believe me,
many of us appreciate it but from my own experience, there is a lot to
be said for good old practical hands-on experience as well. I retired
from Boeing and I've seen a few instances when decades of practical
experience even if not substituted, but certainly complemented
engineering knowledge. So that's how I see the posts from the two of
you: complementing each other. It's too bad that you came to the
position that his posts competing with yours, not complementing them.
OK, now you can go ahead and bite my head off. ;-)
electrolysis is the result of two dissimilar metals, in the presence of
an electrolyte, having an electrical return path that allows current
flow, and thus ion transport - otherwise known as "erosion". cooling
system erosion is passivated by using a [quality] antifreeze and by
avoiding a source of free aquatic ions, i.e. tapwater.
since the return current paths that facilitate erosion [in the case of
"disabled" antifreeze] are all internal, e.g. the direct physical
contact between a copper core and a solder seal, or even the atomic
solution between zinc and copper atoms in a brass alloy, i have a hard
time understanding how "grounding" could possibly help since all current
flow is inside the cooling circuit. unless you add some kind of
electrode [like cathodic protection on ship hulls] to the system to
impress a stronger current over existing potentials, i think the
adherents of "grounding" are simply misattributing their "success" with
using it from the fact that they're actually paying attention having
previously had problems from neglect, and are now also changing their
antifreeze on schedule...
bottom line, don't bother. just make sure your antifreeze is kept up to
spec, do NOT dilute or top up with tapwater [use distilled only], change
it every few years, and you'll be fine.
> they're usually exceptionally reliable and thus, the reasoning goes,
> it's not necessary to change them. however, if ever there is a need
> to change, they're the very devil and i agree, it seems retarded to not make
> afterall, the a/c is designed that way - so should be the heater.
On most reports I've heard A/C failures are much more common.
(Perhaps with the exception of some Fords.)
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