Coolant steam condensing inside window

electrolysis is the result of two dissimilar metals, in the presence of an electrolyte, having an electrical return path that allows current flow, and thus ion transport - otherwise known as "erosion". cooling system erosion is passivated by using a [quality] antifreeze and by avoiding a source of free aquatic ions, i.e. tapwater.

since the return current paths that facilitate erosion [in the case of "disabled" antifreeze] are all internal, e.g. the direct physical contact between a copper core and a solder seal, or even the atomic solution between zinc and copper atoms in a brass alloy, i have a hard time understanding how "grounding" could possibly help since all current flow is inside the cooling circuit. unless you add some kind of electrode [like cathodic protection on ship hulls] to the system to impress a stronger current over existing potentials, i think the adherents of "grounding" are simply misattributing their "success" with using it from the fact that they're actually paying attention having previously had problems from neglect, and are now also changing their antifreeze on schedule...

bottom line, don't bother. just make sure your antifreeze is kept up to spec, do NOT dilute or top up with tapwater [use distilled only], change it every few years, and you'll be fine.

I've bounced this off one of the mechanics I know socially (too busy to be my own mechanic!) and this is what he wrote when I asked for his comments on the electrolysis issue and copper vs. aluminum cores:

"The only comment is that is all bullshit, sometimes theory is different than reality, have done hundreds of heater cores,not one has gone bad. This is after the customer had replaced numerous cores. Interesting that before they went to aluminum for cost and weight savings,they used brass and very rarely went bad, when they did, it was 30 years down the road!"

If there is that much disagreement among technicians, how is the average car owner to know the right way?

all those "cites" are just opinion - no scientific background whatsoever. and with respect to many techs who may sincerely believe what they say, many don't even have long term relationships with their own vehicles, let alone those of their customers, so they don't /really/ know the full "before and after". And even if they did, it's difficult for them to figure out cause and effect - why would they consider blaming themselves when they can't control what a customer may do to a car when it's not in their shop?

as for the "science", included in those cites was a comment about needing to ground stuff if you were able to measure a voltage potential between the radiator and a meter electrode suspended in the coolant. seriously, whoever wrote that fundamentally doesn't have the slightest clue. all that "procedure" will do is measure the electrode potential difference between the probe material and the radiator material - just like any other electrolytic electrode pair! an utterly bizarre belief.

anyway, just stick with quality antifreeze formulated appropriately for your vehicle, distilled water, and a 3-5 year change schedule as recommended by the antifreeze manufacturer.

My thought was that what all that proved was that the coolant was too acidic and should have been replaced long time ago.

I would do even better with 2-year intervals. BTW, I've got those radiator test strips and tested my old coolant with it before the water valve change and it did indicate some acid level. After the walve change and subsequent coolant replacement, the strip showed no acid, as expected. But then I don't know how reliable those test strips are. Do you have any experience with them?

Oh, on another earlier issue about various oil filter brands ... You stated that there was a difference between the Japanese and US-made Honda filters and the Japanese were the good ones. But how do you tell which one you are getting at a Honda dealer's Parts dept? You also indicated your preference for Wix filters. Are they better made than the Japanese filters? TIA

no, any two dissimilar metals in the presence of electrolyte will have an electrode potential between them. any thinking that this is a relevant "test" is to completely not understand what is being observed.

you're always going to have some acid - either because the coolant's absorbing carbon dioxide from the air over time and forming carbonic acid [like what happens more rapidly with a head gasket leak], or because it's in the antifreeze in the first place. different antifreezes have different passivation systems, and some involve organic acids. testing for acid is therefore pretty much irrelevant. just make sure it's a quality antifreeze appropriate to the vehicle, and use distilled water.

don't think that was me - you don't have much choice if you buy filters from the dealer.

i don't know about the japanese ones - i've never knowingly had one and i don't know how you could reliably obtain them - but wix are most definitely better than dealer supplied "usa" honda filters because their anti-drainback valves don't fail after a few hundred miles. denso are another good brand. even the cheap "house brand" woolmort filters [made by champion labs] are better than honda filters in this regard.

True, but my point was that the less acidic the coolant, the smaller is the electrode potential, right? So is in an aluminum core that is not soldered together with different metal as the copper cores are. I've heard that aluminum cores are welded with laser, aren't they? Of course, even in case of an aluminum core, the "electrolyte" coolant still is still in contact with different metals in other parts of the cooling system. :-(

I switched to buying premixed coolants now.

I was referring to your March 15 comment in the "Crude based or synthetic oil" thread:

------------ "most people are better focusing their angst on crappy oil filters - there is some real garbage out there. even oem. usa-made honda oem filters for instance almost always have defective anti-drainback valves after just a few thousand miles. even cheapo walmart [champion labs] filters do better than they do.

wix are the way to go for me."

------------ I thought you implied your approval only for the Japanese made filters in that quote, though you clarified it in your post below. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Anyway, I was thinkining about a choice between Wix filter or one from the dealer.

OK then, looks like I'll also use Wix filters in the future.

not really. acids are used in commercial battery electrolytes because the hydrogen ion is fast moving [thus a good conductor] and doesn't poison electrodes. but you'll get electrode potentials between metal pairs with salts, alkalies, as well as acids. now, potentials may "drift" when using other electrolytes, but that's a poisoning thing, not so much of an inherent potential difference.

some might be, but that's a very expensive way of making something that typically sells for under $100 on a cheaper vehicle. much more commonly, they're just pressed together and the aluminum naturally sticks - much like rungs to the frame in an aluminum ladder. and most aluminum radiator tanks are now reinforced polymer, so glues and sealants are used on that join also.

there's no way to adequately isolate and prevent electrode potentials because of the different materials used in engine construction for different reasons. antifreeze protects against corrosion by causing a very rapid corrosion of a surface, and that corrosion product passivates it against further corrosion. that's the same mechanism for how stainless steel and how aluminum resist corrosion in air.

that's the safe way, but undiluted antifreeze and distilled water is slightly cheaper if you don't mind mixing yourself.

not much of a choice imo.

depending on the physical room you have available, there is an oversize wix filter that fits many older hondas. you'll find the part number on google for this group, but it's good to reduce the so-called [misnomer] "piston slap" cold start noise common on higher mileage hondas.

cameo wrote in news:jokae2$s0k$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

For a heater core, it matters not one whit whether you use a brass or aluminum core. Either will work perfectly if of decent quality, and if properly installed.

This electrolysis thing IS bullshit -- unless you leave your coolant in too long. Part of the reason your're supposed to change the coolant at specific intervals is to prevent the mix from losing its corrosion protection, which loss partly involves electrolysis. Mixing different brands and types of coolant can also reduce corrosion protection sufficient to cause corrosion after two years.

cameo wrote in news:jom7c6$ci$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

If the filter is blue, has the Honda brand on it, and is sold through a Honda/Acura dealer, then it's the best you can buy.

In the US, you are more likely to come across A01, but may also be sold A02 instead. In Canada, you will only ever encounter A02.

Both are identical and interchangeable in specs and performance, despite the differences in their actual construction. Both are first-rate filters which will protect your engine the best for its entire life.

they may be better than some of the really bad ones, but by no means are they "the best you can buy". by no means - see below.

it' exactly the same in the u.s. tegger. even if you order a01, you'll be supplied a02 since that part number "supersedes" previous ones. i can't imagine how you arrive at the bizarre notion that canadia parts sourcing is independent of u.s. parts sourcing, but hey.

tegger, i keep asking you to do this simple test before you keep propagating inaccuracies. when you next [recreationally] change the oil on your integra with the horizontally mounted filter, warm the vehicle up and then let it stand for 1 hour before unscrewing it. if the filter is empty, the anti-drainback valve has failed. if it's full, it hasn't. 100% of the honda filters i've used have failed this important test.

again, i've bothered to do this testing and comparison - and i know what i'm looking at. you haven't and you do not. honda filters suck - that's why it's bad to keep on recommending them, and why honda have relocated the filters on vehicles like the accord, where the filter is now vertically mounted with the attachment at the top. that way, even a failed anti-drainback valve will not leak sludge and particles back into the oil pan, they will be retained in the filter where they belong.

which is called "passivation".

it /wholly/ involves electrolysis.

while mixing isn't recommended, use of tap water is a much bigger problem.

I don't know what happened between the two of you. Only a few months ago you couldn't have agreed more with each other as you virtually finished all sentences the other started. Kinda' like Cartalk's Tom and Ray. Couldn't you just both get along again? It doesn't look pretty now.

i've thought about this. here's my position. and this applies to anyone - it's not personal:

if you have an opinion on something, make sure it's stated as such, not stated as if it were fact. and if you think you know the facts on something, be prepared to back them up. if you don't know the facts and get caught making things up, just suck it up because you should have done your homework properly in the first place.

i'm an engineer/scientist. to some, i'm annoyingly literal. i have no patience for people who get so emotionally invested in some story they've just made up, they fling their teddy in a corner if their story's wheels fall off. and i've got even less patience for teddy flinging.

so, i've contributed technical info to tegger's honda web site in the past, and would happily do so in the future. but not if it involves childish games. especially not childish games like sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la i can't hear you" like he's been playing lately.

Well, thanks for taking time for it.

I'm not sure how to comment without you venting at me next time, so I can see why tegger might not want to respond: it could start a flame war. As to your engineering/scientific contributions here, believe me, many of us appreciate it but from my own experience, there is a lot to be said for good old practical hands-on experience as well. I retired from Boeing and I've seen a few instances when decades of practical experience even if not substituted, but certainly complemented engineering knowledge. So that's how I see the posts from the two of you: complementing each other. It's too bad that you came to the position that his posts competing with yours, not complementing them. OK, now you can go ahead and bite my head off. ;-)

The FedEx just delivered the heater core I ordered online and it looks like the fins are from copper, so this core might be entirely made of copper alloy.

Mixing is not a problem, but the trouble getting destilled water is not worth to me the extra cost of premixed coolant.

I'm not sure I understood you here. Do you mean both Honda and Wix filters are about the same, or that one is not in the same class as the other?

This "piston slap" comment intrigues me. I wonder how I would recognize that noise in my car if it had it and how long would it last. In the Wix product catalog, BTW, I only saw one oil filter fitting my car, the #51334. It's pretty small.

the honda is not in the same class as the wix - the honda is much inferior because of the anti-drainback valve failure problem.

how long would the engine last? hundreds of thousands of miles in the case of a honda. but the noise lasts a few minutes until the engine warms up. i don't think it's piston slap - that wouldn't be affected by having a freer flowing oil filter - this noise is, thus i suspect it's a combination of rod bearings and reduced oil flow with cold oil.

yes it is - that's the catalog number for the "current spec" honda filter. when i said to look on this group, i meant look up the oversize part number i posted before, #51344, not the wix website.

whether or not you can use this oversize filter depends on mounting location. if it's horizontally fixed to the side of the block, it'll usually fit. if you have the newer engine with the filter just under the wheel well, it won't - there's just not enough room, even though the other filter specs are correct.

OK, that's what I thought you wrote the first time.

Then I don't think my engine has that.

Couldn't it also be from warn piston rings?

The filter for this model is pretty well hidden from view under the hood, not to mention accessing it. But the little thing I can see, there may be enough extra room there for a larger filter than the blue one that's in there right now. So I might go with the oversize Wix at next oil change even though the specs for it indicate its use to be for industrial machinery, not passenger vehicles.

i've never heard of ring wear causing a knocking noise.

honda filters are designed to be accessed from underneath. if you do so, it's a apiece of cake.

it is indeed "industrial" in that it's high capacity and high flow. but in terms of the critical specs such as thread size and offset, seal diameter, and bypass pressure, it's identical to the standard honda. it's particle size is marginally larger than the current honda spec, but compliant with the old honda spec, so personally, i'm not losing any sleep over that - especially since it keeps my engine quieter, and i think that knocking is more of an issue than an extra couple of microns in soot size that's already below the hydrodynamic separation threshold.

besides, many filters are used across many different types of engines, manufacturers and machinery. it's like oil seals and bearings. honda just picked one.

I thought we were talking about slapping noise.

OK, I am definitely giving it consideration.