auto-trans dip stick?

level

Forgive me for not laughing with you. Please explain what advantage such a hitch has for a well balanced outfit with a proper noseweight as recomended by the vehicle manufacturer. The whole point of it is to lessen nose weight, or am I missing something fundemental?

through a

tensioned

technology

But you have repeatedly stated that such loads are not towed by SUV's in the Trooper class. Over here anything over 3.5 to 4 tons is subject to Heavy Goods Regulations and need to be towed by a heavy goods vehicle with acceptable running gear including air brakes and annual government inspection. Again I state categorically that load transfer hitches are not used here. You can wriggle and squirm all you like but you have yet to provide *any* evidence as to its use here, let alone its neccessity or *widespread* use.

matter

Do you have tow vehicle brake failures? Are they not either multi circuit of fail-safe?

Oh Lord Above!!!

torsion

understand

So explain why a heavier nose weight would be ideal yet you employ a system specifically to reduce this.

trailer

With a 7000lb low slung load behind, my Trooper tows with no problem whatsoever, regularly,legally safely and quite quickly.

Hardly. You do not even know of auto-reverse brakes which have been universal since the 1980's here and almost standard since the late Seventies. You keep intimating that we are kind of bakwards yet you constantly demonstrate that you do not have a clue.

But you have more than adequately demonstrated in this very post, yet again, that you are absolutely and totally ignorant of the system of towing here.

You need to

weight in

But we are not talking of those vehicles, certainly not when you comment on the situation here. Those bigger loads here have far more stringent regulations, being subject to Heavy Goods regulations, than loads up to 4 tons and even up to 3.5 tons a special tow driving test is required above a certain train weight which is I think 3.5 tons maximum allowable mass. Your regulations appear to be far more relaxed. No wonder you have all your claimed accidents.

Huw

Reply to
Huw
Loading thread data ...

What has all this squabbling have to do with Auto-trans dip stick ??

Or am I missing the point ??

Reply to
Dave

You are missing the point. It is called thread drift. One of the drifters is a clueless Troll and the other is daft enough to answer him LOL. If you are not interested then be a good boy and either select your reading material or go and watch the Simpson's.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Define well balanced. Please explain why auto makers build different versions of the same auto in the UK vs. the USA. Does Isuzu and Toyota etc. deliberetly build an inferior vehicle in the USA when they already have something better in the UK? Why would they do that? Isuzu and Toyota recommend maximum tow ratings here as well. Do they publish balanced figures in the UK and unbalanced in the USA? In the USA people would not tow heavy loads with smaller vehicles because larger vehicles are so readily available. Don't forget another difference in markets. It is common for people to tow recreational trailers 1000's of miles during a single vacation.

You are attempting to refute the benifits of something you have never experienced yourself. Something that others have for decades. Until you fully educate yourself on the benifits and experience the difference yourself debating it with you is pointless. Tow with your current vehicle and trailer without it, then try it with. Only then can you possibly realize how much it helps.

You do not tow 15,000lbs with a trooper. You might tow 6,000 but even then that is pushing things. In the UK you comprimise by using light vehicles to tow somewhat heavier loads than we would with the same vehicle in the USA. To say a trooper in the UK can tow as easily and handle as well as a full sized truck in the USA is absurd. It can't. But the market for smaller vehicles is high in the UK so a compromise is needed. Isuzu and Toyota etc thus build them with stiffer suspensions. I hope they use heavier duty tranny's as well.

Do you have steep downgrades there? Brake pads can overheat. Brakes on vehicles are the same here as there. They fail there just like here. I've never had brakes fail myself but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It also doesn't negate the need for a better system than surge brakes.

Not so. A weight distribution hitch does not change the trailers tounge weight as far as the trailer is concerned, only as far as the tow vehicle is. It distributes the weight towards the front of the tow vehicle rather than the rear. The trailers axle weight remains the same. A heavier load forward of the axle is greatly desired to improve handling.

I thought the same thing back when I towed with the same hitch as you. Then I tried it with the more modern equipment and only then realized the difference.

Not so. I stopped using surge brakes back in the 80's. They probably did have auto-reverse brakes here then but newer systems were already out that were better.

Not so at all. You use the very same system we did decades ago.

No, they are not more relaxed. We are not allowed to tow as heavy of loads on smaller vehicles as you do. We use full sized vehicles for that.

Reply to
Miles

advantage

noseweight

different

already

vehicles

markets.

Lot's of question which would best be answered by the auto manufacturer. Lot's of assumptions made on an unknown basis as far as I am concerned. Do you actually deny that the Trooper pulls 3.5 tons legally in the UK? If yes, please cite references. If no, then all those questions are best answered by someone local to you.

never

Until

difference

I am not refuting any benefit. I am saying it is a band-aid for poor design if used with Trooper sized vehicles which can and do pull 3.5 ton loads safely elsewhere [here] without it.

light

can't.

You can twist and squirm and try to alter the subject all you like. Above 4.0 tons I have no view on the damned thing because it is not relevant and not used here. Below that weight it is again not used because it is not needed. Once again I ask you to justify your claim that it is.

compromise is

suspensions.

To my certain knowledge they do not use a stiffer suspension on Trooper and full size Land Cruiser here compared to with you. My Land Cruiser even has the active suspension only fitted to Lexus LX470 where you are. Pich-up trucks are a different matter and must have different versions or suspensions to you because they have a far higher payload size for size.

Brakes on

here.

Yes we certainly do and heavy truck drivers from flat areas commonly have smoking brakes an the main road here. However, it is almost unheard of for a Trooper type vehicle to suffer brake fade with a towed load.

You can say what you like but for a 3.5 ton trailer here it is just about right, though I would like maybe a 100lbs more ideally. Anything above 4 tons is subject to different rules here. There is no nose weight recomendation above this weight here and most trailers above this are either close coupled turntable type with a Continental hitch or agricultural. Agricultural trailers may have a nose weight of around 3 tons for a 14 ton trailer weight. Trucks with continental drawbars as fitted to heavy goods vehicles have no nose weight whatsoever.

improve

problem

But you cannot have exactly. You did not know of the universal use of auto-reverse brakes for a start, so you cannot know how efficient modern brakes of this kind are either.

realized

constantly

probably

already

Thank you. You did not know.

How do you now know this? Only a few posts ago you were claiming we used two systems which we categorically do not.

You are not allowed to tow 3 tons behind a Trooper? Show me a reference to the law and the reason for it please.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

"Huw" wrote > >

Have steep downgrades that is. Especially to get anywhere North and East of here. West is a no go area.

Just thought I'd clear that up :-)

Huw

Reply to
Huw

original post

without

You can say what you like as can I. Now go back to sleep, it's way after your bed time.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

You just can't help showing yourself to be the prat that you are. Why can't you just try and be civil or doesn't your IQ allow it.

Reply to
Dave

Sure did kid. You want more?

Huw

Reply to
Huw

I don't think you would be able to give any more that could entertain me sufficiently to keep replying to.

I wouldn't want to mentally drain you.

Not sure either where the 'kid' thing comes from either. Writing inaccurate facts and dribble in your replies appears to be your forte - keep it up for us all to enjoy.

Reply to
Dave

entertain me

I have pointed towards links several times and I have repeatedly asked Miles to justify his wild fantasies about what is used to tow in the UK. I have also pointed out to his satisfaction, I think, that the pick-ups we have here are one ton vehicles that are four cylinder, a fact some idiot said was impossible. I have also asked him to justify his comment that our towing method is unsafe when it is not, proven by its use here every day many thousands of times over. These are facts. I acknowledge that you use a load balancing hitch in the USA but deny its suitability for conditions here, where it is not used and is of no use and is not used,despite his stupid protestations otherwise. He can say it is used here until he is blue in the face but it does not make it so.

He continues to try and steer the subject to bigger vehicles and larger loads where I have made it clear that they are not applicable here other than how I have described the situation relating to heavy goods vehicles and their more stringent rules and inspections. It started and continues with his assertion that towing 3.5 tons behind a Trooper and carrying 1 ton in a Hilux type vehicle is dangerous and impossible, echoed by another poster. This is pure rubbish. I sometimes tow slightly more than the legal limit behind some of my vehicles at my own risk and so do thousands of others in the same way that most people break the speed limit. The legal limit is certainly safe with a built in margin for, for instance, moving and unstable loads such as cattle. Two more of his misconceptions involved auto reverse brakes and that he stated that we could not tow a load heavier than the towing vehicle here. Of course we can and always have. In the case of the Trooper it is nearly a ton and a half lighter than its potential trailer load. The Trooper tows exceptionally well, better than the Land Cruiser.

His continued posting of totally inaccurate information cannot go unchallenged, and will not.

That another poster, you, cannot comprehend and does not seem to accept these facts, says vastly more about you than it does about me. They are easily verifiable.

My only 'crime' seems to be that I know more about towing and towing law in the UK than does Miles, which really doesn't take a lot of work. I have only scratched the surface and have not mentioned the class of licences and how these affect the mass allowed to be driven by an individual plus the age restrictions and tachograph rules which apply to loads towed for commercial purposes much less the exemptions thereof.

I have made no comment that I can recall on the towing rules in force in the US, because I do not know them. It is somewhat odd that Miles seems to think he knows everything about how we tow here yet seems to be fundamentally incorrect almost every time, as I have amply demonstrated in this and previous posts.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

P.S. I live in the UK not USA

Reply to
Dave

Good. Then you should know that I am correct, if you know anything at all about the subject, which you have yet to demonstrate.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

This isn't my argument, all I wanted to know was what all this has to do with the subject.

I also have to say that despite numerous replies from yourself, you haven't even managed to answer this simple question yet !!

I can say that I do agree with the majority of your points even though I am not an authority on all the ins and outs of the subject.

I find it so sad that you refuse to accept other peoples points and you always have to try and be the authority on the subject.

It is possible for other points raised in this matter to be correct despite not being able to provide proof immediately. I think that you should bear this in mind before constantly forcing your views on everyone.

I seam to remember quite a while ago having to justify another point with you where you got quite arrogant. In that instance I couldn't relay my sources over the web, maybe this is the case in this instance..

Reply to
Dave

Even more verbal diarrhoea................

At least it will keep everyone amused who have nothing better to do than read your posts

Keep up the good entertainment, I think it is YOUR bedtime now .....

Reply to
Dave

Sorry, I forgot to mention, I had realised that this was not connected to dipsticks - other than the dipstick who calls himself HUW.

Reply to
Dave

To which you have not one sensible comment

Just a few short posts ago you said this

START don't think you would be able to give any more that could entertain me sufficiently to keep replying to.

I wouldn't want to mentally drain you.

END

You have kept on replying despite the above statement but it seems it is you who is finally mentally drained to the point that you cannot draft a simple post in sensible reply to my last one which raised a number of valid points. Can you refute any of it? I don't think so. I'll just copy it below so you have no need to search for it.

Huw

Nothing whatsoever to do with dipsticks. Isn't that obvious to you? It is not a good sign that you need this pointed out to you.

though I am

If their points are incorrect I point it out. If they continue to insist they are correct despite evidence to the contrary then I point it out more forcefully. Why should this bother you? You are,after all, not obliged to read it, let alone comment.

Again I have to ask Miles for justification for his statements which insist on our current use of alien towing technology and braking systems and the impossibility or lack of safety, he and another, insisted is intrinsic to our system. Also how the bancing hitch is relevant to our system in the UK. He is not able to provide proof immediately [or later or at all] because all the evidence out there proves it is I that is correct. Remember that he did provide one link with quotes out of context which was laughably easy to refute. I have a whole battery of further evidence of UK towing hitches and towing law in reserve if the thread calls for it.

There is no state secret involved here or was then [because I do not debate state secrets LOL]. It seems from the above that your only motive to current posts in this thread is to Troll, that is, to look for trouble as a kind of revenge for past failure or inadequacy in some way. Some people just can't take being wrong. If I am wrong, I will admit to being so, as I sometimes do. I am not wrong in this instance as you tacitly acknowledge. This being the case, then the opposite view is wrong. There is no halfway here because either we tow and carry such loads in the manner I described or we don't. He has been repeatedly asked to justify his view on our towing system and hardware but he has not because he cannot, not because he chooses not to. Tough shit squire.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Don't you just like winding people up - I do.

All the best - keep up the bullshit.

Dave.

Reply to
Dave

I have spoken with auto manufactures. The auto and trailer industry uses my companies products in much of their testing. Their main reply is marketing. Different markets. They went on to state there are two main differences. One is the vehicles people want to drive is different but a bigger issue is the far higher liability and litigation in the USA.

That has more to do with your regulations than actual vehicle capability differences. Our regulations won't allow a trooper to be rated that high. I wouldn't buy a Trooper if I was going to tow 7,000lbs. The other difference appears that few in the USA tow all the way up to a vehicles rating. Typically we buy a vehicle rated at 50-100% over the actual amount we intend to tow. The exception is if someone lives in an area such as Kansas where the freeway on ramps are the steepest hills they will ever see.

Not so. What you are attempting to tell me is that if you were to add a weight distribution hitch to that Trooper that you would see little or no improvement in handling. You would see a huge improvement. You can not refute that until you have towed with a WD hitch installed. As for a band-aid for poor design, we are talking about the same vehicle here. The only difference is the UK's version has stiffer springs. The frame is still the same. A full sized truck is going to be far stiffer and far better designed for towing than any Trooper in either country. None the less people will use a WD hitch on the larger truck because it improves handling greatly. You can keep ranting that it doesn't, it can't, its a band-aid but until you actually try it your words are baseless.

Needed? Not much is needed. It depends on the comfort, handling and safety factor you wish to achieve. It is more of a want than a need. We do not use WD hitches very often below about 3500lbs or so. It differs with personal choices. I already said I do not use a WD hitch with my 2500lb trailer. It is not needed but if I did add it I would see some improvement. Instead I tow with my larger truck. At 4 tons I would definately use a WD hitch even with my full sized truck that is rated to tow that much without it. That truck will easily out handle a Trooper when towing. So the WD hitch would be a want, not a need. The benifits are worth it.

Hmmm...now you're saying they are the same when above you stated we use WD hitches because of bad design. They are the same design. Trailer manufactures here could easily reduce the tounge weight by moving the axle forward. They do not do that because that would reduce handling. Typically trailers here are designed with tounge weights around 10% of total weight. Fifth wheels are about 15% I believe. Lighter is not better. It is a compromise in the UK for a different market.

You keep talking about the rules. Our rules appear to be more restrictive with regards to tow ratings. None the less people here do not rely on the government to tell us what is or isn't ideal. Rather we rely on industry experts and our own experiences. So even though tow ratings are below the UK's for identicle vehicles we typically tow even less. If we want to tow more we buy a bigger vehicle rather than tow up to what the rules allow.

Not so. I said I assume that issue was corrected but by then I had moved on to better hitch systems. Besides that issue has nothing to do with towing forward. The brakes themselves are the same.

Already covered that issue. UK vs. Europe. Keep up.

You keep changing your numbers. Is it 3, 3.5 or 4 tons? According to Isuzu the Trooper is rated in the USA up to 5,000lbs. Subtract from that the weight of the driver, passengers, luggage and fuel to get your actual maximum tow rating. You still have to be under the Troopers GVWR with the trailer.

Why tow 6,000lbs+ with such a small vehicle rather than buy a larger more capable one?

Reply to
Miles

different

You mean they do not wish to drive Trooper/Pajero/Discovery/Range Rover/ Mercedes type vehicles? I thought the USA was a major market for these things.

That is a big problem here also. That is what insurance is for and so expensive. Our vehicles are fully covered up to their maximum allowed towing weight which in my case is 6615lbs but newer ones add another

1100lbs to that.

questions

capability

You have that about ways. If regulation is the cause, then it is YOUR regulation which prevents YOU exploiting the vehicles capability. It is not regulation which limits mine to towing 3 tons, it is some limitation of the vehicle. The regulations only state that the manufacturers imposed limit is not exceeded but that 3.5 tons are not exceeded unless brakes are modified to progressive coupled type. It may be that electical systems would be acceptable but I seem to remember that it is specifically excluded. Air brakes are the preffered solution though it is not popular due to the economics of the system for a gain of just half a ton with a limited number of suitable vehicles which IIRC is just the Land/Range Rover and Land Cruiser. No other vehicles in this size range that I can think of have a maximum allowed tow weight of 4 tons.

Our regulations won't allow a trooper to be rated that

I can assure you that it does the job quite adequetly. I know of one that used to tow at and over the limit for some 80,000 miles per year. Law enforcers are much more likely to check weights these last two years so he has now changed it for a vehicle that does not tow because his towed loads were most often overweight.

The other

vehicles

little or

I can assure you that the springs on this kind of vehicle are similar if not identical taking into account of differences accounted for by left and right hand drive.

A full sized truck is going to be far stiffer

country.

This is not relevant here because a) this class does not exist here and b) It would still be limited to 3.5 to four tons towed load unless it was classed as a commercial vehicle with all the plating, insurance, operators licence, brake, tachograph and driving licence regulations that come with it.

I am sure it pulls the back of the truck up and transfers tongue weight horizontally. But basically it does this by lightening the tongue weight. To every action there is an equal and oposite reaction and all that.

like.

need.

Shit. Up to two tons my vehicles tow and drive as if there were no trailer behind. 60 to 70 miles per hour is no problem on country roads allowing a bit extra stopping distance. One of my tri-axle trailers weighs 2800 lbs unladen for goodness sake

It

would

handle a

Of trailer which overloads your springs with high nose weights. Simple really..

They are the same design. Trailer

handling.

Nope. I suspect they do it for simplicity and cheapness of design together with the profit opportunities afforded by selling extra driving aids to compensate.

It is a compromise everywhere. 10% with a minimum of 50kgs is about normal for caravans in the uk. They seldom weigh more than 1200kgs so

120kgs is about right for these vans longer than 15' which are generally towed by SUV's. About 180kgs is my favourite nose weight for above two tons towed.

Anything

Rather we

These SUV's are the biggest available in the UK. Pick up trucks do not make good tow vehicles because their rear is too light without ballast in the back but anyhow most have a low towing maximum. As I have explained previously, higher loads than 4 tons [effectively

3.5 tons] come under far different rules here and become uneconomic and inpractical for private or leisure owners.

Twenty years is a long time and with almost every new generation of trailer I have had the brakes are better.

They do not use either system in Europe either as far as I am aware. Please provide a reference if you claim they are. You did INSIST that they were used in the UK despite me living and towing here. I assume from the above that you now concede that you were wrong.

Covered above.

Subtract from

No. That is the maximum allowed trailer load which is commonly reached by many classes of driver. Not usually leisure drivers I would think, but I am no longer one of those as far as towing is concerned.

I have explained this above.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

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