I would be interested to try that too. I have put on a lot of local off road runs to help show folks what their Jeep can and can't do in the snow but have never had a 'full time' vs 'part time' test.
I am thinking you lose most of the engine braking effect with the full time, but don't know.
Mike
Earle Hort>
An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an automatic still has a LOT.
Tom
Lee Ayrt> You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making control
therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not in control anymore.
best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes. that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to regain control with the brake peddle.
That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls. We do these year round.
Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to keep control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like 3rd low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels and start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of control.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >Hmm, if this is the case, then *theoretically* you can regain control by opening the throttle and speeding up the engine some. I have a physics degree, and I have been employed as an engineer and as a mechanic. I can assure you, that *theoretically* this makes sense. I am not going to try it any time soon though.
Earle
I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by shifting to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law enforcement officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not by someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as you put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are trying to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn. Shift into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain better control of your vehicle.
Spdloader
Was that in Georgia? ;^)
(Trucker I used to know called neutral downhill with a load, "Georgia overdrive".)
Earle
enforcement
The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled decent.
Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact' way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser. Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close. Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle. The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking control.
I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last second still works best.
I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
Mike
Spdloader wrote:
Nope. North Cackalacky.
Spdloader
The OP thought that he couldn't get his it into 4L. When crawling my Cherokee down an icy driveway here in N'England the auto trans allows me to go much faster than I'd like.
snipped-for-privacy@fastmail.fm wrote:
Agreed. Although, if you're traveling sideways you're already out of control. Here I'm thinking of my last sideways trip on a particular steep driveway.
Mike Roma> That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up. It's fun to watch.
Earle
---correct, it was I who offered it up as a suggested way to regain control, then a few others agreed.
---You usually don't have time to react, but in a slow speed slide because your wheels don't have traction WILL correct itself if slipped into neutral and the steering wheel turned toward the slide.
---again, I think you offered up advice based on what works for you. I have no problem with that, just don't deter someone from trying something else when other things didn't work.
---exactly, and it works the same way in a 4WD vehicle.
---it doesn't matter to me whether you believe or doubt my training. My department in 1992 had 18 Crown Victorias, 12 Ford Taurus SHO's, 2 Chevy Blazers 4WD, 8 Jeep Cherokee's all 4WD, and two Suzuki Samurai's also 4WD.
---in a part time system, all 4 wheels DO NOT lock up unless they are locked together to start with.
---In the accidents I investigated, numbering in the very high hundreds, SPEED was the single most cause of those accidents on exit ramps. Not shifting into neutral, but SPEED. Driving too fast for conditions, merely because they are in a 4WD, is what causes people to crash SUV's in inclement weather. Not once in any report did anyone EVER tell me they had shifted into neutral. By the way, shifting into neutral to stop OR regain control of a vehicle is not against the law. You do it every time you come to a stop sign, light, or parking lot, and that's the type of "shift into neutral I'm talking about.
Jeep should offer a course in how to handle your new 4x4. Land Rover here in Canada does. I have been out with their factory team in my CJ7 showing them around some new challenges in the area we do day trips in. I even had their newspaper reporter out with us on one clean up trip I was the liaison on. He blasted the LR drivers for their poor showing. He said he was on a great clean up trip..... with a bunch of Jeepers! LOL!
4x4's handle totally different than any other vehicle, especially in 'part time' with the front and rear differentials locked together. The brakes go insane. It takes learning to get comfortable with that 5-10 mph you need to be moving to hold control. You cannot safely stop on a icy decent, you just have to be able to control it to the bottom. Most times it is 'to stop, hit tree or snowbank', otherwise aim good.... ;-)Rear wheel drives handle a certain way and front wheel drives handle totally different.
Empty parking lots come first snow is the way to go to learn or a nice local sand pit area like we used to have.
Mike
Earle Hort>
Not in a 4x4 with a locked center diff or 'part time' drive. See explanation below.
I think folks should go out to a parking lot to learn and see the differences, but as a general statement, using the gears to slow down is better than brakes in a 4x4 with a locked center differential or in 'part time' 4x4.
Neutral just don't work because when in a slide with the wheels turned, the front wheels still have to travel 'farther' in the circle to come back straight. This means one back tire or one front tire has to scuff the ground or start to slide sending you into a worse slide or really fast 360's. You have to have power to overcome this wheel scuff or it's like locking the brake on one front ot rear or both tires.
No it doesn't. See above. The center differential isn't there in part time 4x4 so the front and rear axles are locked together. In your cruiser, you can lock the front wheels and have the rear wheels push you still. In part time 4x4. the back wheels stop turning at the same time as the fronts.
The transfer case locks the front differential to the rear. On snow, lock the front wheels and both back ones normally lock because all four were seeing even torque.
They then hit the brakes to slow down maybe dumping the clutch, maybe not as in an auto and as soon as the front tires skidded, the rears skidded and off to the low side they went faster than they can blink. Just like pulling on the emergency brake half way around a corner. Try it, it's fun...
If they had of used the engine to slow down, they would have been able to make the corner most likely. Really, try it...
Give me a break, I used to race on ice tracks.... We lived where you never saw bare roads from November until spring thaw, they were all ice roads. My wife has to drive on ice roads to work most winter days still and she never uses the brakes while calmly driving by all the fender benders and snowbankers.
Jeep 4x4 works 'really' well when you learn it.
Mike
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