OT: Home Defense

My Savage has an eighteen and one eighth inch barrel:

ANY round from ANY firearm will penetrate ordinary home walls with enough force to kill anyone on the other side.

Not true. Ballistic rounds exist for that very reason.

Ballistic rounds were invented by taking the hollowpoint effect, (mushroom on impact) and take it a step further, (shatter upon impact).

For example:

Although not a ballistic round,.22 hollow points shot from a 6in barrel or less will penetrate up to 3/4in drywall, and splatter inside the wall cavity.

There are several shotgun loads, that have similar results with drywall.

Read about Glaser brand Safety Slugs as well.

Until television and movies glorified the use of the 9mm, there were more people in the U.S. killed with .22 caliber rounds than any other caliber. Reason? One, surely is availability and low cost, but, most dramatically, is it's low velocity. Shot into a human torso, it doesn't have the velocity to continue on a straight path, but, to ricochet around inside the soft tissue and create catastrophic, irreparable damage.

Spdloader

Everybody, a word of advice--this guy may be an Army sniper like he claims to be, but Army snipers don't use any of the crap that he's recommending.

Glasers don't penetrate walls, it's true. They also don't penetrate much else, including bad guys. A .22 is a very lethal round in the right hands, but it doesn't usually finish killing the guy until after he's had plenty of time to take your gun away from you and cram it up your butt sideways, and it's not effective because it "ricochets around", it's effective because it's accurate as all Hell. As for the shotgun's he's pushing, he's clearly never taken any kind of training in police use of shotguns, where one of the exercises is typically for the instructor to keep taking it away from you and whacking you with it until you finally figure out that it's not the right weapon for close-quarters use (as typically occurs in home defense).

And I seriously doubt that he's ever actually fired any of this crap at drywall.

Geez, ever wonder why the military believes they a fifty caliber on a Jeep? God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto: snipped-for-privacy@aol.com

Geez, I have one of nearly every caliber, they all have a difference purposes. Out here in California every patrol car carries a riot pump shotgun:

This is the funniest one yet, Cooyon the Sniper, never happen, he couldn't hit a bull in the ass at 50yds!!!! Hahahaha, are you FOS,

To the OP, I offered sound advice. It is your decision to use it or not.

To J Clarke, I never pushed any shotgun, and advised against them for home protection. Shotguns have their place, but not in the home for home protection.

You should re-read the post you are referring to.

Also, I don't remember any J Clarke in any of my training classes, and I certainly never trained you in any of my CQB classes, neither from my days as a police or a military instructor. You probably don't know what CQB/CQC means.

How many shootings / autopsies have you performed or investigated involving shootings with the various rounds in use today. How many times have you used them yourself and seen first hand the results?

I'm betting none.

As to my experience, my former statements are true, and only the tip of the iceberg of some 18 years of experience and training.

My advice is from real-world. I've seen and experienced what I advised. I have the surgeries, scars, certificates, and nightmares to prove it.

I don't know what your experience or training is, but you are wrong and you have no business advising others on personal protection.

Spdloader

One of these days you're going to fire a magazine load of Glasers at somebody in anger and find out just how bad the advice you have been giving out really is.

If Glasers really work then show us some photos of a wound channel and explain how such a wound will generate the necessary drop in blood pressure to stop an assailant. If .22s really "ricochet around" then show us some wound channels that demonstrate this. If you have all the experience you claim and have been training people in this stuff as long as you claim then you must have a huge collection of such material.

And just how many people have you shot with Glasers then performed autopsies on the bodies?

Whoa! They let CSI guys do that now? Really? I should have studied forensics instead of dull, boring computer programming and Spanish.

Cheers,

Earle

I've never fired a weapon in anger. A person can't make good decisions in anger, and there is no time for it. Glasers aren't meant to use as a "magazine load" as you put it. You reveal yourself with every post. If you knew what you were talking about you'd know that. I have fired weapons many times in defense of myself and others. I have fired weapons in offensive manuevers as well, both in Civilian and Military capacities, with many types of rounds, including the Glaser Safety Slug. I have first hand knowledge of what they can and can't do.

I don't personally use Glasers anymore. When I did it was not personal choice, it was departmental S.O.P. due to the lawsuits involving bystanders being shot by stray rounds in the late '80s. That forced a lot of departments to look for safer methods. I am qualified to use more lethal rounds for protection. My personal choice is a Silvertip Hollow Point, in .45 ACP. However, the Glaser is still a very good round with respectable knock down power in the correct caliber for the average person wanting a home defense weapon.

Now you're being rediculous and morbidly sick. I have nothing to prove to you. I have no "collections" and do not glorify death or it's image. If you've never seen the aftermath of a .22 round after it bounced around inside a rib cage or a skull, then you haven't the experience to debate the subject with someone who has. Also, you say show "us". Are you the self appointed spokesman for the entire group now? I don't think so. You appear to be the only one taking offense in what advice I had to offer the OP.

What, do you think it isn't possible that there is a retired police officer, or former-military person in this newsgroup? I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one. It's not a big deal to have the training I have. I know tons of guys and a few women who do. I'm not trying to impress anyone, just qualifying my knowledge, that's all.

I've never performed an autopsy, I am not qualified. I have been personally present at 34 performed by qualified people. I have investigated many, many gunshot related deaths, and been present and instructed at the subsequent autopsies, which is required to obtain evidence in any case of homicide or shooting. I obtained a lot of gun and ballistics experience in those in addtion to my structured ballistics training. This used to be required knowledge for anyone who was to teach others about firearms and their use.

Spdloader

How many people have you personally shot with Glasers and then been present during the subsequent autopsy?

All of your insecure, defensive blather appears to be an attempt to obfuscate the fact that you did not answer that question.

What a ridiculous question!!!!!!!! Myself, growing up thru the Vietnam era, and losing my best friend there:

As a civilian police officer, I was directly involved with and I have seen three autopsies of deaths that resulted from five shots from the Glaser. Two in .45 and one in .40S&W. I did not fire all the shots, but did fire some, and these were separate incidents. I can tell you first hand that these three people ceased all aggressive activity at once and were uniformly knocked to the ground by the force of the strikes. In each case there was either alcohol, or drugs involved. There were no exit wounds. I will not be more specific, it is none of your business and serves no purpose but sensationalizm. It is not a point to gloat over but a necessary part of the job. Probably not good enough for you though. No matter what my answer you are going to shoot it down and belittle it. That is what people like you do.

Look up the definition of insecure in the same book that obfuscate came from.

You attacked me. You offered up no experience, training, or credentials that validate your opinion.

I neither addressed you, nor was I talking to you. You even misunderstood my post and mis-quoted me in your attack.

In my opinion, that makes you a stupid, insecure, loudmouth, idiot.

Spdloader

By the force of the strikes?

No handgun exerts enough force to knock anyone to the ground--since you claim to be an expert you would know this.

And how does it happen that someone whose job is to observe autopsies finds himself in a firefight anyway?

In other words you don't really know what if anything the Glasers did.

If you would answer plainly, completely, and in a straightforward manner then you would be far more convincing. Instead we have vague assertions and claims.

Oh, such a crushing riposte.

You're the one asserting that Glasers are effective, it's up to you to support your claim.

If you want to hold a private conversation, USENET is not the place to do it.

I'm sure that if I gave a damn about your opinion, I would be crushed.

Then you probably wouldn't believe a fifty caliber would throw a body hundred feet in the air, either:

Yes

...and you are certain of this how? Again, you reveal your ignorance. A .45acp 230 grain slug traveling at 900fps is plenty to do this. This is exactly why the FBI worked with Smith & Wesson, and developed the CAL.40S&W. It is simply a 10mm with less muzzle velocity.

Being present at an autopsy is a small part of a detectives job. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? Before you berate that, I started as a jailer. Promoted from there up to court bailiff. Promoted to interstate transportation officer. Promoted from there to Patrol Officer/Detective. From there to Warrant Squad/Detective, and then to violent crimes division/Detective. Then I had a brief six month stint in Harbor Patrol with a drug interdiction unit, before finally becoming one of three departmental firearms instructors.

If you knew anything, you'd understand the effects drugs have on a human. It is very hard to stop someone on drugs by shooting them. Most are unaffected by being shot for long periods. I once interviewed a man after he was shot 8 times with 9mm para rounds. None of the rounds hit anything vital. All but 3 passed through him. He sipped coffee as we spoke, sitting on the front steps of his home. His BAC showed no alcohol, but high levels of crystal methamphetamine.

AGAIN with the WE. You are the only one who has a problem understanding what I have said.

You attacked me.

I have supported my claim with facts, and qualified my experience. You have offered nothing but insults and opinion based on your limited intellect and apparently zero real world experience.

You attacked me in USENET. You chose the arena, I did not.

Then why bother with me in the first place?

I hope for the sake of your family, you don't have a handgun in your home.

Spdloader

To the O.P.

I'm sorry your request for help has been hijacked. I am partly responsible, even though I was just defending myself against this J Clarke person.

I'd like to revise my advice to you and say use whatever handgun you feel comfortable with, get the best training you can get with it, and practice until you can use it second nature. Never fire if you're uncertain of your target. Ever. Teach your family how dangerous it is, and how to properly respect it.

Lastly, get a good dog. I have a German Shepherd. They won't let anyone they don't know come into their turf uninvited. If a burglar does get past your dog, you will be waiting with a surprise for him.

Good luck.

Spdloader

It means, literally, prepare for war. Spdloader