Re: For gear heads only

funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be controlled more efficiently though.

From NY Times, Cam-less engines: > > WHAT'S NEXT > A Chip-Based Challenge to a Car's Spinning Camshaft > By IAN AUSTEN > > F Henry Ford could see the engines now made by the company he founded > 100 years ago, he would probably be puzzled by the electronics that > control many operations. But the mechanical system operating the valves > that bring fuel and air into the engine and let out exhaust would be > very familiar. > > As in Ford's time, those spring-loaded valves are opened and closed by > cams, precisely shaped bumps of steel spinning along a rotating shaft. > > But some automotive researchers are working on ways of making mechanical > valve controls as obsolete as the Model T Ford. Operating the controls > electronically could improve fuel efficiency, reduce emissions and > perhaps even eliminate the need for spark plugs in gasoline engines. > > The demise of the camshaft would also be welcomed by companies that make > electronic parts for cars. "We'd really like to see this technology come > along because it requires a huge use of semiconductors," said Ray > Cornyn, the manager of Motorola's microcontroller division in Austin, > Tex., which supplies the auto industry. > > Over the years, electronics have been more of a boon than a threat to > camshafts. Computer-controlled manufacturing systems and computer-based > designs have improved the quality of camshafts while reducing the cost > of their manufacture. But in concept, camshafts remained relatively > unchanged from the era of Ford's first assembly lines. > > Today it is common for each cylinder of a car's engine to have two pairs > of intake and exhaust valves, with each pair sharing a cam on the > camshaft. The camshaft is set spinning by a rubber belt or steel chain > connected to the engine's crankshaft, the component that ultimately > provides the power to the car's wheels. As the camshaft rotates, the > high point of each cam first presses against a spring-loaded lifter of > an intake valve, gradually opening it, and then closing it as the cam's > low side approaches. As it continues to revolve, the high part of the > cam repeats the process for the paired exhaust valve. > > When Siemens VDO Automotive, in partnership with BMW, built a prototype > camless engine four years ago, it came up with a three-part system. In > place of cams it used solenoids, electromagnetically controlled plungers > that are already widely used in cars for things like electric door > locks. > > While an electronic valve control system doesn't need mechanical power > from the crankshaft, it does need to know what the crankshaft and the > pistons driving it are doing. In a normal car, the belt or chain that > connects crankshaft to camshaft ensures proper timing; that is, no valve > remains open when its cylinder's piston is at the top of its travel. > Such a situation would seriously damage a motor. > > In its camless version, Siemens prevents such mistiming by using sensors > that detect the position of the crankshaft and thus the pistons. > Finally, the new engine was given yet another powerful computer to make > sure everything works in sequence. "When an eight-cylinder engine with > four valves per cylinder is running at 6,000 r.p.m. there's a lot to > do," said Michael Gauthier, director of corporate technology in > Siemens's automotive division. > > The prototype engine was installed in a 3-series BMW sedan. It worked > but had several significant shortcomings. For one thing, the solenoids > and the additional computer power taxed the car's already overburdened > electrical system. Mr. Gauthier said that cars would have to make a > long-awaited move to 42-volt electrical systems (from the current 12 > volts) before electronic valve control would be practical. > > For car makers, the system's least attractive aspect was its price > relative to camshafts. And there was a problem that made the engine > unattractive to buyers, particularly those who associate BMW with > smoothly running engines. As anyone who has opened a car with electric > locks knows, solenoids are far from silent. "I saw the vehicle, and all > you heard when it was running was slap, slap, slap," Mr. Gauthier said. > > Motorola believes that the control computer could be programmed to > soften and quiet the action of the solenoids. Other electronic > valve-control designs have relied on different parts to push the valves > open. > > A device that used piezoelectric crystals, which produce electricity > when bent, was quiet and cut the power burden. But current piezoelectric > devices must be about 8 to 10 inches high to operate engine valves. The > result, Mr. Gauthier said, is an engine "that looks something like a > porcupine" and will not fit under the hood of most cars. > > There are several incentives for trying to perfect electronic valves. > Among other things, it would allow engines to reduce their power after > getting a car up to speed, an easy way to save fuel. "About 90 percent > of the time you need about 20 percent of the engine's output," Mr. > Gauthier said. "It's extremely wasteful to put a 200-horsepower engine > in a car when you only need 40 horsepower most of the time." > > But some car makers have already found several ways to achieve that goal > mechanically. Some engines have camshafts that can be raised or lowered > between two positions to adjust the valve openings. A more sophisticated > system from BMW can make a wider range of valve adjustments to reduce or > boost power. > > Because of those mechanical advances and the cost issue, Zoran Filipi, > an associate research scientist and the assistant director of the > University of Michigan's automotive research center, said that > electronic control would probably become widespread only if it could > change the way engines operate. > > A potential way to reduce emissions and improve economy in gasoline > engines would be to eliminate spark plugs and, like a diesel engine, > ignite fuel through the compression of pistons. Such engines, however, > would only be cleaner if they used a carefully blended fuel mix injected > at the last moment. Dr. Filipi said that electronic valves might be an > effective way to control the engines' operation. > > The biggest hurdle for electronic valve controls may be that when it > comes to auto parts, age does have its advantages, said Dr. Filipi. > "Over the last 100 years or so we've perfected camshaft technologies," > he said. > > >
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serg
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Reply to
L.W.(ßill)

If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike] with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.

I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the valves, let the engine compression do it for you.

I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up in memory.

Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) Hughes III uttered for posterity:

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Lon Stowell

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Football God

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L.W.(ßill)

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L.W.(ßill)

Search keywords: Cosworth, 1986, Renault, pneumatic valve train, Formula 1, and most importantly "Sometimes bill is just plain wrong" :>-)

Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) Hughes III uttered for posterity:

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Lon Stowell

Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) Hughes III uttered for posterity:

or

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Lon Stowell

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Football God

The Mercedes 300 SLR had no springs whatever. The desmodromic valves worked with a cam to open and a cam to close. Ducati started using the same valves in the mid 80's. Actually surprised with a quick google how many other engines use/used it.

Approximately 8/21/03 11:24, L.W.(ßill) Hughes III uttered for posterity:

Reply to
Lon Stowell

Ahhh, this explains why you have to order power locks "up" and power locks "down" separately... solenoids work very well in 2 directions.

-Brian

: > I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with : > emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the : > valves, let the engine compression do it for you. : >

: > I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used : > solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging : > me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up : > in memory. : >

: > Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) Hughes III uttered for posterity: : >

: > > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at : > > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just : > > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if : > > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't : > > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for : > > precision, high performance horse power. : > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O : > > mailto: snipped-for-privacy@aol.com

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> >

: > > serg wrote: : > >>

: > >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the : > >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the : > >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be : > >> controlled more efficiently though. :

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Cherokee-LTD

Reply to
L.W.(ßill)

Ahh, you don't believe those clever germans and italians can do this, using an idea from the french Delage firm.

The merest moment spent with the keyword desmodromic or even Mercedes 300SLR [actually W196R] or Ducati Desmodromic would have yielded pictures, articles, technical articles and such to fill in the gaps. They worked very nicely. At very high speed. Delage's worked, but not sophisticated enough to deal with heat. Mercedes solved it by realizing that the valves are in a system, not standalone, and used the engine itself to close the valve with a bit of slop in the system. Ducati uses a very very light spring that works only for the final few thousandths of an inch, which would resolve the low speed issues that the Mercedes W196 had...and still allows you to operate the entire valve train with minimal finger pressure.

Enjoy, some have drawings, some have pictures. Some have engineering analysis.

Approximately 8/21/03 12:39, L.W.(ßill) Hughes III uttered for posterity:

Reply to
Lon Stowell

Ducati >started using the same valves in the mid 80's.

Reply to
Gregg

Greg, the gas they are writing about is nitrogen and under two thousand five hundred pounds per square inch should be liquid, therefore hydraulic, no? And does nitrogen fit the definition below?

Ma>

Reply to
L.W.(ßill)

So, how much nitrogen is there in "air" compared to say oxygen? I figger if they wanna call it a pneumatic valve operation, they invented it, only nitpickers unwilling to admit they are wrong disagree, and it still runs on a compressed gas normally found in great quantities in air. Also strongly suspect it isn't liquid nitrogen, nor does it look like a female figure with big breasts.

Approximately 8/21/03 15:17, L.W.(ßill) Hughes III uttered for posterity:

Reply to
Lon Stowell

I was thinking stepper motor, but have never had an electric door lock apart.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

"L.W.(ßill) Hughes III" wrote:

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Mike Romain

Nitrogen is not liquid at 2500 psi, Nitrogen must be refrigerated to very low temps and stored in a dewers to be held as a liquid. I beleive it fits the definition of Pneumatic fine, Nitrogen is inert doesnt react badly with other substances.

Gregg

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Gregg

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L.W.(ßill)

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DougW

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