Towing Mirrors - most are now illegal!

All,

Did you know that now all towing mirrors (by law) must be marked E11.

Failure to have either a towing mirror on your car, or an "illegal" mirror (i.e. NOT marked E11) could lead to 3 points on your licence and a £60 fine.

I didn't, its in the May issue of the Caravan Club Magazine (I checked it wasn't April 1st!)

Cheers

Peter

Reply to
puffernutter
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Surely this only applies to vehicles produced from the date the legistlation came in to power?

I didn't know in fairness. Don't use them on the 110 or the RR, Used to onthe old RR and Disco.

Lee

Reply to
Lee_D

Lee,

This is all news to me as well!

Statutory Instrument 3165/2005 says that from 12 December 2005 it is a legal requirement that you use type approved mirrors (E-marked) on both sides of the vehicle in the UK.

Well, the law also states that you must be able to clearly see down both sides of the caravan and 4m either side, at a distance of 20m behind the caravan. (Basically only the widest of cars towing the narrowest of caravans wont need mirrors).

Note, CE marks DON'T ally, it must be "E" marked.

Finally, it is not illegal to sell non "E" marked mirrors, just to use them.

Looking at the legislation (and I'm no expert) it would seem that us car drivers have been caught up in legislation for larger vehicles.

The website is at

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Does anybody else have any views?

Cheers

Peter

Reply to
puffernutter

I think that we should all take a deep breath and go away and read the paperwork.

Much of what I have seen/heard so far does not tally with what I read in the regulations/directives. Most, if not all, existing legal installations will remain so from what I have seen so far.

Does anyone know the source of the 4m to the side 20m back view requirement? I haven't found it yet.

Reply to
Dougal

On or around Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:11:56 +0100, puffernutter enlightened us thusly:

It's in C&U but it's one of the more obscure bits.

Seems to be a date of 26th January 2010, after which you need mirrors thusly:

Mirrors or other devices for indirect vision complying with Annex III to Community Directive 2003/97 or 2005/27 or paragraph 15 of ECE Regulation

46.02.

mirrors should comply with: Paragraph 6 of Annex I and Annex II to Community Directive 2003/97 or

2005/27 or paragraphs 4, 5 and 6.1 of ECE Regulation 46.02.

Prior to that and after 1st June 1978 (or 10th July if it's a transit), you need:

(i) At least one exterior mirror fitted on the offside of the vehicle; and (ii) at least one interior mirror, unless a mirror so fitted would give the driver no view to the rear of the vehicle; and (iii) at least one exterior mirror fitted on the nearside of the vehicle unless an interior mirror gives the driver an adequate view to the rear.

mirrors should comply with: Item 2 of Annex I to Community Directive 71/127 or 79/795 or Annex II to Community Directive 86/562 or 88/321 or paragraphs 4 to 8 of ECE Regulation

46.01 and paragraphs (2) and (4) of this regulation.

But that's a very small excerpt. Different rules for buses and commercials, and for various other things, and different dates too.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

E-marked if appropriate but not necessarily E11 which is for stuff homologated in the UK. Other countries use numbers other than 11.

Reply to
Dougal

The Regulation came into force on 12 December 2005 but the effective dates are different. The one that we're most likely to meet is for vehicles first used from 27 January 2010.

Yes, they're diffferent things.

Reply to
Dougal

... and there's a pre-1st Jun 1978 get out for dual-purpose vehicles (remember them?) from any regulatory requirement for the mirrors themselves other than that any interior mirror should not have edges likely to injure if struck.

Reply to
Dougal

"> mirrors should comply with:

Interesting the use of the wording "should comply"; normally in legislation "should" indicates a recommendation not a compulsion, "shall" or "must" are normally used to indicate that something is a requirement.

Regards Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

I don't use them .... Discovery and Range Rover are wide enough to see down the sides, and I can see through the rear of the van with my rear view mirror...

Reply to
Neil Brownlee

In message , Lee_D writes

The CC magazine article had a cop out (if you'll excuse the expression) Their own legal department had found it too hard and difficult - so they'd asked a mirror manufacturer. Where else would you go to get a fair unbiassed rational explanation of the need or otherwise to go out and spend lots of your hard earned money buying their product?

Reply to
hugh

Yes, I noticed that and I plan to write to the Caravan Club and ask:

  1. Why didn't they see it (the legislation) coming; and
  2. Why are their legal department not competent to work it out so we have the gen from (as you correctly say) a potentially biased seller.

Cheers

Peter

Reply to
puffernutter

On or around Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:19:51 +0100, "Jeff" enlightened us thusly:

I th "4 Requirements to be complied with by any mirrors fitted"

BTW, I can't see an exemption for pre-78 vehicles. They're item 9 in the table:

"A wheeled motor vehicle, not in items 1 to 7, first used before 1st June

1978 (or in the case of a Ford Transit motor car, 10th July 1978) and a track-laying motor vehicle which is not an agricultural motor vehicle first used on or after 1st January 1958, which in either case is :- (a) a bus; (b) a dual-purpose vehicle; or (c) a goods vehicle."

and they need mirrors:

"At least one exterior mirror fitted on the offside of the vehicle and either one interior mirror or one exterior mirror fitted on the near-side of the vehicle."

but no requirements for the mirrors themselves, other than the general para.

3, which is:

"(3) Save as provided in paragraph (5), in the case of a wheeled motor vehicle described in item 1, 2, 10 or 11 of the Table which is first used on or after 1st April 1969 the edges of any interior mirror shall be surrounded by some material such as will render it unlikely that severe cuts would be caused if the mirror or that material were struck by any occupant of the vehicle."

Para 5 lists the various approved mirror regulations.

Item 10 is "everything else", and has to have at least 1 mirror, internal or external.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

In message , Neil Brownlee writes

Checked my Defender (98) mirrors and they are stamped E2.

Reply to
hugh

I think you mean Item 10

Para 5 lists alternatives to paras 1-4 i.e. if not using the table.

I think you mean Item 11

I think this was my comment that you're querying ....

You're correct that there is no exemption from the use of mirrors. I didn't suggest otherwise!

What I was trying to point out was that in this case the mirrors themselves did not have to meet any regulatory requirements - Table, Column 4: Requirements to be complied with by any mirrors fitted. For Item 10 - None etc. as you quoted above.

- i.e. no E-mark, BS Kitemark etc.. So your dual-purpose pre-1st June

1978 Land Rover can use bits of polished metal, glass with kitchen foil stuck on the back. A "mirror" for the purpose of this regulation means any device with a reflecting surface (Para 7).

But, oops, I did miss seeing the post-1st April 1969 date for the interior mirror with injury-free surround!

.... Or that's how I read it.

Nothing personal - just having fun nit-picking! But it just goes to illustrate what a mess our laws have become.

Reply to
Dougal

On or around Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:09:28 +0100, Dougal enlightened us thusly:

yeah, I do. dunno how that happened.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

I was being idle and not posting but a pure coincidence that a certain mirror manufacturer has launched an EII marked mirror and a misleading advertising campaign plus a series of ' press releases' ( yeh my arse they are) to go with it then ? Derek

Reply to
Derek

I've half been following this thread but all I've seen so far is in reference to towing a caravan. Do these regulations (old, new, soon to be, pie in the sky) apply to towing anything or just specifically to a caravan. If just to a "caravan" what is the defintion of a "caravan".

When I tow my trailer I can't see it in any mirror unless going round a fairly tight corner.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

All the regulations are about the mirror of the towing vehicle with or without a trailer attached. Mirrors for use with trailers are considered to be vehicle mirrors and subject to the same requirements. A caravan is a trailer: the word 'caravan' is not in the regulations.

There is nothing about what is seen in the mirror other than when the combination is in a straight line.

You've got a little trailer! The rules for the interior mirror don't require you to see anything foward of a point on the ground 60m behind the driver's eye (ocular points).

Reply to
Dougal

Ah right so anything towed.

I can't see anything of my trailer when in a straight line. Not even the wheel arches. So on a 2001 Disco should I have "towing mirrors" fitted when I have the trailer hitched? The door mirrors have no markings.

Well it's a "medium" open box about 6' long 4' wide, 2' deep. The overall width means it has to have a full light board with two fog lights.

That explains what entire family saloons can disappear into the blind "spot" behind a Disco. I don't think many people driving family saloons realise that.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

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