BMW owner looking at Lexus

I own a '98 BMW M3 4 door, which has been a good car, except that it has some characteristics which are not suiting me very well. So, began to look at Lexus and wondered if anyone here has had some experiences that may add some perspective to a Lexus switch.

I like the M3 because when in its element, it is fantastic. Periodically, I drive to Santa Cruz down winding Highway 17 from the San Francisco Bay Area and the car just devours that highway with stellar handling. The engine easily flattens the hills in top gear. The bad is that the seats and or driving position are just uncomfortable, causing lower back pain, as well as considerable pain in my right leg. Even my wife in the passenger seat has lower back pain. This takes about to hours of driving. No seat adjustment fixes it. The ride is quite stiff, and that would be OK except for the poor condition of California roads. They just pound the car and me. The car is geared short, which leaves the engine spinning 3600 revs at 80 mph in 5th gear, which is tiresome. Great top gear power, but feels like it needs a

6th gear. And in rush hour traffic, the long clutch throw, and apparently odd leg angle, leave my right leg in a very painful state.

I began to look at the BMW 540i, but it is not that much bigger than the M3 inside, and the sport seats are like the M3 seats, hard and far too narrow. I looked at Lexus (used) and the only thing that seems to fit the bill for me is the GS400. The IS300 is too small. While I am no fan of the Lexus GS400 styling, the performance aspect of the car appealed to me, but I read that it is almost too plush on the suspension. Nonetheless, I don't know how this car is comfort wise on long trips. The ride has to be better than the M3, and the car, while slower than the M3, is still pretty brisk. I think at this point, I am ready for a bit more luxury and less of the "go-fast" stuff. I also drive a LS400 with 115k miles on it and could not believe how rattle and squeak free the car was. Are they all like this? The M3 is not as tight, in part, because the roads have beaten it to death.

When I begin to look at GS400s, anything I should be looking for? Long term experiences are appreciated.

Thanks,

- Phil

Reply to
Phil
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Try

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to read owner reviews and also J.D.Power ratings. Here's a link to take you directly to the J.D.Power page for a 2004 Lexus GS400
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From what I've read the reliability is better than the M3, which I love as it's a wonderful car but I did have similar concerns as you and moved onto a Lexus. But having never driven a GS400 I can't tell you if it performs better than your M3 although the specs on paper seem to be close, if not slightly more in the GS's favor. Certainly long term reliability with the GS400 seems good. I hunted for recalls (none) and Technical Service Bulletins
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regarding the GS400 and found nothing major. If there are any that would worry you then take along the information and the dealer should be able to look up the service record for the vehicle you're interested in and see if it has been done. I've never regretted moving to Lexus. Although I did love BMW I seemed to share ownership with the dealer, (they had it in their shop as much as I had it on the road, or so it seemed sometimes).

Lexus have never let me down, either the cars or the dealerships, and I'm sure your experience with your LS400 puts a smile on your face :-)

There is another place you could ask these questions,

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and see what information other owners can give you. Good luck and I hope you find what you're looking for!

Reply to
Alex Devlin

The Lexuses are all rattle and squeak free, or nearly so. That's a Toyota thing.

They're also designed to be on the Buick ride end of things; that's also a Toyota thing.

If you want some a ride more like what you have, but want to look at Japanese high end vehicles, look at Infiniti. The line was drawn back in 1991, with Lexus being plush ride and Infiniti being sport ride.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

"They're also designed to be on the Buick ride end of things; that's also a Toyota thing."

Huh? You ever drive an IS300? You paint with too broad a brush. Although you are mostly right.

- GRL

"It's good to want things."

Periodically, I

Reply to
GRL

Phil, I went from a 95 M3 to a 98 GS300 for exactly the same reasons you mention. While I liked the M3, I found it difficult to get comfortable with the ultra-finicky seats and found the level of performance hard to access on a day-to-day basis with cops, traffic, etc. I was also slightly worried about some long-term reliability and cost-of-service issues.

The Lexus has been exactly what I expected: smooth, quiet, super comfortable, reasonably quick, easy to drive, and ultra-reliable. I've had over five yars of pleasant motoring. But I have missed the M3 quite a bit. The GS is a fairly soft car and has none of the visceral thrill you get out of the M3. I also missed the control of the manual transmission. It will go quickly in the curves if you want to push it, but it never acts like it really wants to. It is a great 7/10ths car, an OK 8/10ths car, and a lousy

9/10ths car, exactly opposite of the BMW. You can spend some money on suspension upgrades, but then I'd suggest you get a 5-series to start with.

I'm getting read to sell my ultra-clean, low-mile (34K) GS300, so if you're at all interested in a trade, drop me a line.

- Mark

Reply to
markjen

The exact same arguments apply for moving from a Jetta/Passat to an Accord, for example.

Life is full of trade-offs.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

he IS300 is a much better handler than the rest of the Lexus line (as it's designed to be), but compared to its *direct* competition it's still on the soft end. That's just a Lexus thing.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

Actually, most of the reports I've read say the IS300 is more like the firmer old E36 3-series and less like the newer/plusher E46. I think that has been the rub against the car - it doesn't straddle the compromise between comfort and performance as well as the new BMW.

FWIIW, Car and Driver just had a comprehensive $35K comparo test of sports sedans. I think the finishing order went like: Infiniti G35 six-speed, BMW

325i, Acura TL, Lexus IS300, Audi A4, Saab 9-3 Arc, and Jag X-Type.

- Mark

Reply to
markjen

Mark,

I just took a 180 mile trip today down to Santa Cruz and back via coastal Highway 1 and through winding roads east back towards our home. I can see how the M3 would be missed. On the curvy parts, or on any road where handling is appreciated, the car is just wonderful. I use Goodyear F1 GS-D3 tires and these things, on this car, stuck like Velcro, even on the wet pavement today.

I tried more seat adjustments and it helped comfort. It is no Lexus I am sure, but your assessment is right. The faster the M3 goes, the better it seems to work. Today made it harder to think of not having the car. But, a long freeway ride or a daily commute may make me think otherwise.

Not yet in the market for another car, but thank you for your offer on your GS300. I think I will test drive a GS300 or GS400 just to see what I think.

- Phil

Reply to
Phil

You should do that. The GS has higher limits than most people think - it just isolates you so much more from the driving experience that it never feels like it is really going. It's just a velvet hammer, especially with the V8. Also, except for the models with 17-inch wheels, Lexus mounts some REALLY crappy 16-inch rubber on these things - mine came with Generals which were $60/corner tires on a $41K car. Mounting a good set of Michelins made a world of difference.

I just recently got a new Mini Cooper S and am enjoying the BMW driving experience again. But I also find myself saying, "Does this thing really have to ride this harshly to be this much fun?" There is no free lunch - everything is a compromise.

- Mark

Reply to
markjen

I second that. A lifelong German car guy (VW GTIs, various 911s) I needed Lexus reliability for a daily driver for this stage of my life/career. A 2000 GS300 is my ride these days.

Although I wish I'd gotten the GS400, the GS300 can be some fun when it needs to be, but is a luxurious escape when it must be. A new set of Toyos and I'm throwing the thing into corners and having some fun again.

Someday, I'll be back in a Porsche or the like, but for now, I love my car.

Reply to
jeff

Here's one little tidbit for you that you can take for what it's worth.

While dining out this evening with a business associate, the seven year old battery on our LS400 went dead (~20 F temp.). I have jumper cables and noted a family exiting the restaurant. I ran up and asked for assistance. The gentleman agreed. I pointed where my car was parked and a few minutes later he pulled up in his BMW 325i. He popped the hood and we set about trying to find the battery. No sign of it. He didn't know where it was. I recalled (vaguely) that it is buried under the back seat. Then my associate noted a compartment under the hood marked with a large plus. Snapping off the cover revealed a nut/bold that was obviously meant to be used for battery access. I had the owner fire up his Beemer and set about connecting the jumper cables. You could hear the 325i engine labor as the cross-car circuit was completed. I tried to start the LS and about all I got was dim lights. Starter would not even budge. Moving the cable connectors on the clean terminals did no good. The LS would not start off the BMW. Not enough juice. I thanked the BMW owner and started calling friends in the area. Reached one with a Chevy Trailblazer. He drove up to the restaurant we were stuck at, we connected up my jumper cables, and the LS started immediately.

Learned two things: seven years is too much for a battery and don't expect to get a jump start from a BMW no matter how agreeable the owner is.

3-series must have pathetically marginal electrical systems...or GM makes very superior electrical systems.
Reply to
GRL

Ummmm....never, EVER start the donor car. The donor car's ENGINE isn't providing the juice to start your car; his BATTERY is.

And if his battery can start *his* car all by itself, it can certainly start *your* car all by itself. Not only is the donor car engine entirely unnecessary, you could damage some electrical systems in the donor car by having it running while you're using it to jump start something else.

I've never understood, ever, why people seem to think they have to not only start the donor car, but rev the engine. What do they think they're adding to the mix? They're not being a generator for the crippled car. The donor car battery is plenty big all by itself, as evidenced by its placement in the donor car in the first place.

There's no chance that the BMW battery wasn't big enough to start your car. There's every chance that something between the back seat and under the hood is loose or corroded. Damn Germans--trying to be slick about things, they cause more problems than they solve. But hey, on paper, it looked good....

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

Ummmm....never, EVER start the donor car. The donor car's ENGINE isn't providing the juice to start your car; his BATTERY is.

And if his battery can start *his* car all by itself, it can certainly start *your* car all by itself. Not only is the donor car engine entirely unnecessary, you could damage some electrical systems in the donor car by having it running while you're using it to jump start something else.

I've never understood, ever, why people seem to think they have to not only start the donor car, but rev the engine. What do they think they're adding to the mix? They're not being a generator for the crippled car. The donor car battery is plenty big all by itself, as evidenced by its placement in the donor car in the first place.

There's no chance that the BMW battery wasn't big enough to start your car. There's every chance that something between the back seat and under the hood is loose or corroded. Damn Germans--trying to be slick about things, they cause more problems than they solve. But hey, on paper, it looked good....

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

I own a '98 M3 and it has the same battery arrangement as you described. There is no good reason the BMW could not start the Lexus unless the BMW connections between battery and jump terminals were poor, the cable connections between the BMW and Lexus were not good (you tried improving this), and/or, the BMW battery was marginal itself. In addition, while I would expect the 325i to be able to start the Lexus,

One reason the battery is in the trunk is weight distribution. The battery weighs about 45 lbs or so. On a 3000 lb. car such as the 325i, moving the battery from over the rear wheels to over the front wheels would change weight distribution. If 50/50 to start with, it would end up 51.5% front and 48.5% rear. Not a lot, but enough to make a difference in handling for cars like the 325i.

- Phil

Periodically,

Reply to
Phil

Don't know where you heard that thing about doing jumps off of a stopped donor car, but that's not what I've ever done nor seen anyone else do in 35 years of mid-west winter driving and dozens of jumps given or received. Trying to start the combination of a weak battery and a cold engine off of a possibly weak donor battery makes no sense to me. With the donor engine running you have additional charging capacity on-line - a good thing. Why would you not want that?

The Beemer contacts were all clean metal. No corrosion or paint to interfere. The Beemer six labored when we made the circuit, so there was electrical contact and we did get a little current flowing witness the lights on the LS brightening up. If there was a problem with the line from the battery in the trunk or back seat or wherever it is, one would think that that would have affected his ability to start the Beemer itself. Didn't. So I don't get it.

Reply to
GRL

Have you any idea what the rating is of the BMW battery? I've sometimes had to get a jump from a pick-up just because the only other vehicle available wasn't giving enough juice.

The old Ford pick-ups usually have a lot of power in reserve :-)

Reply to
Alex Devlin

Wow! Thanks for the thorough technical analysis.

I wonder- if one can't hear the 325's audio system outside the car when the windows and doors are closed- heck, this must mean 3-series have pathetically marginal stereo systems!

rt

Periodically,

Reply to
rt

Let's not make this over-complicated folks.

  1. It is accepted jumping procedure to have the donor car running while starting the dead car. It provides extra power to assist in starting and raises voltage slightly to assist in overcoming the resistance in the connections and the jumper cables. The proper sequence is: a) both cars off; b) pos to pos; c) neg on dead car's battery to a ground location on the donor car AWAY from the batter (to avoid the chance of a spark igniting battery fumes); d) start the donor car; e) start the dead car.

  1. Jumper cables are typically 5x as long as the cable between the battery and the starter motor. As such, and especially with cheap jumper cables, you can often have times where the extra resistance in the jumper cables and connections will prevent a jump start.

  2. With the 325i's battery location requiring a relatively long run to the engine compartment AND the extra length of the jumper cable, this is a challenging jumping situation - jumper cables typically connect directly to the battery. But I would guess that the 325i battery and/or connections were marginal.

  1. The problem illustrated here says NOTHING about the goodness of BMW's or

325i's electrical systems - it simply says that there was enough resistance in the very long cable run from the 325i's battery to the dead car to to prevent the jump.

  1. As Phil said, BMWs place the battery for optimal weight distribution. You can argue that this isn't worth the tradeoffs, but BMW feels it is.

- Mark

Reply to
markjen

Then starting your *own* car off the very same battery must make no sense to you--yet you do it every day.

The entire purpose of the battery is o start the car. Whether its the car it's permanently mounted and wired to, or a car that it's temporarily wired to via jumper cables--it makes no difference to either the battery OR the engine it's starting. The battery starts the engine, and that's that. The engine doesn't start the engine.

On top of that, there are nowadays delicate electronic components that can be damaged on your car if you have it running while you're having your battery start another car.

Do you ever listen to Tom and Ray on Car Talk?

Again, if you're worried about the donor battery not being able to start a car, you should be worried about it not being able to start the car it's installed in. To the battery, it doesn't make any difference.

You could burn out the diodes on the donor car's alternator, for one. The alternator is built to handle, among other things, charging the battery--not powering the starter of *any* vehicle.

You may hook up the cables and run the donor car to have the donor car's alternator provide a charge into the dead battery, but the alternator is not and never was designed to power a starter. The battery is designed to power the starter, period. The starter is a HUGE draw, way beyond the capacity of the alternator. Asking the alternator to help with this is only asking for trouble.

If the donor battery can start the car in which it's installed, it can certainly start the other car.

Let me ask you this: if it was easy to remove the good battery from your car and install it into the dead car to start the dead car, you'd do that--and you wouldn't worry about having a car engine running in order to start the dead car. Well, it's not easy--hence the jumper cables, which *are* an easy way to move the battery power from the good battery over to the car that needs a good battery to start.

Your car is sitting in your garage in the morning and you go out to start it. You don't have it hooked to an engine to get it to start. You have a battery in it which starts it. Starting the dead car is no different.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

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