Pre-coded keys (BMW)

Hi all,

Thought I had better start a new thread.

I have just been to the dealer parts department to ask about the buying pre-coded key issue.

At first, the guy had not heard about the car being made with ten keys, but then checked with two other people, one whom was the workshop controller.

The workshop controller confirmed what I thought:

The cars were made with 10 keys. Eight were held in storage at the factory. The keys are ordered by the dealer from Germany pre-coded and ready to go.

Once all ten available keys have been issued, then that is it. New ECU time.

I recorded the conversation and I am happy to email it to anyone whom wants to listen. It is edited as there were other items under discussion, and the guy was gone for a few minutes asking other staff, it is about 1.8MB in size.

best wishes

David

(bog nut 6 at gmail dot com)

no spaces

Reply to
David
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This confirms that:

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Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan
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This contradicts that:

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Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

The keys I have been writing about are the keys for cars from late 2005 onwards, the ones on the top right of the four in the top picture.

David

Reply to
David

BMW staff are well trained in dealing with loonies.

Reply to
Eiron

That sounds like utter nonsense on a variety of levels.

BMW make around 2 million cars per year so that's 16 million keys to stash away every year.

Very few people ever buy a spare key, let alone more than 1 so they're going to be keeping most of those 16 million. So, since 2005 (and being generous with sales) they're currently storing about 100 million keys.

That's a lot of keys.

It's also 16 million mostly unnecessary keys to manufacture. And these are the sort of company who employ bean counters to chop 0.01p off a component.

Now, how long are they going to keep these keys? Traditionally BMW have maintained a spares catalogue for 20+ years. Since they sell cars to every other country on the planet there's no standardised mechanism to say when a car has been scrapped.

And, finally, they don't make all these cars in Germany so they've got to ship all these bloody keys back there from the US & SA and make sure they're stashed away carefully.

I wonder if there's a way they could avoid all that palarver? Say, for instance, if they could just keep a record stored away somewhere that would allow them to manufacture up to 8 new keys as and when they were needed? You could call it something trendy and modern like a "database". Yes, that sounds good.

I nearly hedged my bets when I called it nonsense.

It's beyond nonsense.

It's bollocks.

:-)

Reply to
Scott M

Probably first used by a UK BMW dealer as one of their many excuses.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Scrapping a ECU after registering 10 keys is also bollox. It's a computer that can be reprogrammed.

The dealer will probably tell the gullible punter that he needs a new ECU and then reprograms it - that will incur a charge of a few £K. That's how motor dealerships make money.

Reply to
alan

I reported what I was told...

I think that the actuality of it is that the various modules on the cars that are / can be coded to keys, can only accept 10 keys.

A member on

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works at Cotswold BMW, and has stated, more than once, that as a dealer, they are unable to code new keys for cars. This may not mean that keys cannot be coded, but the dealers are not allowed to code keys.

What bothers me is that someone can buy a key that is able to open and start the car without presenting the car at the time.

David

Reply to
David

It's probably what BMW tell the gullible trainees.

Possibly:

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my source is less than immaculate :-) Loads of stories on the likes of Pistonheads.

Well yes, which somewhat defeats the reasoning behind the 'storage of about 20 million sets of keys just in case' thesis. The British library only has about 15 million books . . .

Reply to
RJH

20 million keys need not occupy that much volume, work it out.
Reply to
newshound

I can see the confusion from the hard of thinking staff in the dealership.

The ECU has 10 'memory locations' for keys. This is probably some kind of security measure, although it seems a bit random.

So, the issue isn't that they make only 10 keys, but that the ECU is programmed to only accept a maximum of 10 different key codes.

Reply to
SteveH

Without wishing to sound naive are these physical keys or data? If the later then I can't really see a problem.

Reply to
Stephen Foster

From the dealers perspective it is impossible. DIS (dealer comms & diagnostic system that does all that) can only fill the ten slots, it can't rewrite any.

Reply to
Scott M

Don't worry, I wasn't aiming at you, hence the smiley. I started off with a vague idea to say it seemed a silly system and by the time I'd finished it was a rant ;-)

Traditionally that's how it always was for the fixed keys. I'm not even sure why the keyless system would need to be different.

Dealers do have to order keys in from Germany. There's two possible reasons.

1) Since the code is stored on an 8 pin chip inside - it could be that it's hard written before being soldered onto the board to avoid being able to program the key externally 2) Since all the various bits of diagnostic s/w are readily available on the interweb having leaked there via the dealer network, they keep the key writing stuff in a very secure place!

Cotswold make a point of saying that they can get keys but only if you can get to them with all the documentation.

Reply to
Scott M

But a logistical nightmare and, even at £2 a key, a cost of £200 million of unwanted stock....

Reply to
Scott M

Got it! Having just typed various replies ('cos I woke up early) it's just come to me.

The dealer is correct....

But, they've misconstrued "keys" in the sense of a physical key rather than its true meaning of cryptographic "keys".

Tah-dah!

Reply to
Scott M

My point was /cataloguing/ x 20m. Hence the library reference. And that's /sets/. Now, work it out clever clogs :-)

Reply to
RJH

Just because there is a possiblity of 20 million different key combinations doesnt mean a manufacturer will use every one of them.

Probably find its down to just a few thousand, brings down production costs

Reply to
steve robinson

20 million possible combinations yes, doesnt mean the Manufacturer will actually make use of all the possible combinations , probably only uses a few thousand of them .
Reply to
steve robinson

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