Exploring the limits

So I've had my MSM since July and have put about 5k miles on it. I'm not

19 anymore and I'm not interested in being a hazard to myself or others, but lately I've been trying to explore the limits, just a bit. There's a road I take home from work, a 90 degree left. It has a 15mph warning sign, but it's cambered and isn't really that tight. So I've been taking it at increasingly higher speeds. So far I'm up to 50 mph, well in excess of the speed limit. I'm waiting to experience either understeer or oversteer, but so far I haven't so much as made the tires squeal.

So for you autocrossers out there, what are these things like at the limit anyway? Obviously it's way higher than anything you can do on public roads.

Reply to
Carbon
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My '94 standard "Aussie spec" tends to understeer a little, but the limits are as you say quite high. Once traction is lost on bitumen, the little car tends to move *very* quickly, you need quick reflexes to keep up with what's happening.

Reply to
Mal Osborne

It's way higher than anything you *should* do on public roads, at least until you've had some track instruction to establish the proper reflexes. Sign up for a track day and learn how to find and exploit the car's limits in a safe, structured environment, with an instructor at your elbow. Most organizations require an approved rollbar to participate. You can't believe how much fun you'll have!

How any given Miata will behave depends on several factors, including tires, alignment, and driver skill. These cars can be set up dead neutral, so they understeer on the throttle and oversteer off, according to weight transfer. Most people are more comfortable with a little understeer, since a neutral car demands considerable attention and counterintuitive response (if the rear comes out, apply more throttle). That's probably even more true with an MSM.

Reply to
Lanny Chambers

Right after I got my 2000, 5-speed, I visited an office industrial park near my house on Sunday, when there was no-one there. I spent over an hour running up and down and streets and throwing it around in figure-8s and donuts in the parking lots.

It didn't take too long to find the limits of adhesion and just how much it will 2-wheel and 4-wheel drift and just when and how the car reacts when it does break loose. The next time it rained, I did the same thing.

It was a great education to spend a couple of hours on a remote and fairly safe skid pad.

Try it.

Tim

Reply to
Healeyman

I would just add that you can get into allot of performance driver training schools / events w/o a roll bar so don't let that scare you off from doing such. The roll bar requirement is usually fairly serious (not something you'll need in your first class) and is based on you doing race speeds an a track. You can go thru your local SCCA region or usually, there are Porsche Club of America and BMW Club of America that are quite active if you're in a major metropolitan area. Obviously there are Miata clubs all over the place, some of them are more performance minded, some are more socially minded but they might also bee a good thing to check into. It never ceases to amaze me how cool most miata folks are and I don't think that it's just by chance. People who feel the 'need to impress' or to 'show people' tend to drive other type cars and take their attitudes with them ;-)

I would also say that if you don't do the drivers training, you'd be better off going in a big open parking lot to continue your probing of the limits. The reason being, when the rear does actually break and begin coming around for the first time, it's a bit of a shock / surprise and the reflex reaction is "I'm going too fast, back off the gas quick". There's little that's worse that you can do. This creates a weight transfer outward at the rear and exacerbates the problem, usually resulting in a spin. Even worse (possibly) is that you save the first spin and the car pendulums back around and spins you the other way which can actually be in the oncoming lane. I don't necessarily concur with Lanny in saying 'apply more throttle' when the rear comes around (oversteer) but I would agree with him that it's somewhat counterintuitive to stay steady on the throttle and countersteer (quickly). Probably Lanny is considering a situation wherein you've brought the rear about thru throttle lift (which can/will happen) in that case ya, you'd best ease back into the throttle quickly. I'm thinking more of what I think of as a typical corner (since this is not a corner that your getting half way thru and then realizing you're in over your head, which brings about that nasty lift) wherein you've hit the apex and you're powering thru the exit. Sorry to ramble but having spun on both public roads, parking lots and autocross courses, I know which one I prefer. Trust me, autocrossing is one of the most fun automotive things you can do with your pants on (sorry).

Have fun, Chris

99BBB

"Lanny Chambers" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...

Reply to
Chris D'Agnolo

I've noticed that when I lose traction on a hill in the snow, the rear of the Miata swings out quite a bit faster than anything else I've driven (compared to other rear-drive cars). And getting off the gas quickly seems to limit that. Totally different situation of course.

The Corvair was much more controllable in this mode. :)

miker

Reply to
miker

Indeed...in the snow, and on a hill...those situations both change the prescribed reaction enormously. It's for that reason that anyone should be extremely careful in each specific situation...unless they have experience or instruction in *that* situation. And then they should just be fairly careful ;-P.

Don't be too afraid though...dry/wet pavement drifting and snow blasting (same on snow) are valid, exciting sports as well as the Touge we mountain dwellers in New England all love...But I will agree with you that this car...it's unlike anything else.

That's why I love it :D

(Though in the situation it mentioned...that's probably a weight thing...)

-r0ll

miker wrote:

Reply to
r0lliSl1fe

"r0lliSl1fe" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

What mountains? AFAIK there are no mountains in New England?

Mountain = more than 10,000ft* elevation.

Hill = less than 10,000ft elevation

*Although there are those in Colorado who feel a mountain must be more than 14,000ft elevation but those people drink Coors so what can you expect?
Reply to
XS11E

New England may just be "EDEN" for miata drivers... trust me.

Reply to
Remove This

"Remove This" wrote in news:BIVkh.7034$dw6.215@trndny02:

Hardly, you don't have Highway 191 or the Apache trail, no mountains, none of the fabulous road that the west has.

I've motorcycles over most of the US, if you want tame, easy, no challenge roads, the east is fine but otherwise you need to come west.

Reply to
XS11E

Oooo I accidentally started a "my turf is badder" debate, didn't I? I love all roads all over the country, by the way, but I will say this...driving in our "hills" in New England can be quite the challenge. I had to go over three gaps (back and forth, up and down ~800ft each) on my way to my high school every morning when I was younger...and driving just a Civic! And these roads aren't banked for driving...they're banked to get runoff off the road! I must also say I took the same route in the snow...

Why do you think I love Touge and these roads so much...I've had practice!

Any way you cut it...*wherever* you live...life is better in a Miata. :)

-r0ll

Reply to
r0lliSl1fe

"r0lliSl1fe" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Yup, next you'll probably start the "dreaded oil thread".

Reply to
XS11E

As the man said, you ain't seen nuthin' until you've Miata'd US191 in southeastern Arizona. The most intense section is essentially a 30-mile autocross--1st gear corners, goes over a REAL mountain range, rarely see

3rd gear. You won't be sliding those blind corners with sheer drops and no guardrails. The G loads gave me a sore neck.
Reply to
Lanny Chambers

Lanny Chambers wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com:

Don't forget the "enjoyment" of running 191 after a rain when there will be sand washed across the road in some of the corners. Which corners? The blind ones, of course! There's nothing more "fun" than the instant switch from high traction asphalt to no traction sand...

I've never done it in the Miata, always on a motorcycle. Some years back there was a "waterfowl" group (they rode Ducs and Geese* out of Renaissance Motors in Tucson) that rode 191 every year on their way to the Ruidoso NM rally and each year they lost a bike or two and occasionally killed one of their group. It's NOT a road for the casual rider/driver.

I never crashed because I'm chicken and I usually rode with SWMBO on the back. If I went too fast I couldn't breathe as she'd grab me around the chest and squeeze like a boa constrictor.... it was slow down or asphyxiate.

Years back someone got some movies of the road on his website but I can't find them and I wasn't smart enough to save them.

Here's some info:

formatting link
Google will find lot's more, search for Coronado Trail.

NOTE: US 191 used to be US 666, called the Devil's Highway by some. The religious fanatics got the name changed.

*Ducatis and Moto Guzzis for the non-motorcyclists.
Reply to
XS11E

...or DURING a thunderstorm. On the northern, somewhat-less-twisty part I once got stuck behind a USFS fire truck with its lights going, in the pouring rain. A couple of miles passed before we reached a stretch where I could to pass him safely.

The T1Rs pretty much ignore sand on the pavement. The real problem on

191 is pavement that simply isn't there anymore, the outside lane having fallen away into the canyon. That's in the southern section, of course, where the posted speed limit is 10 mph.

You really should do it in the Miata. It's too hairy for a bike.

Reply to
Lanny Chambers

I am glad I don't drink any American mass beer at all, or I would end up getting my decimals wrong like some people in the west.

Highest mountain in the Netherlands: Vaalserberg, elevation well over

1,000 feet, (1,056 to be precise), and a place we mountain dwellers in the Netherlands all loved for its steep slopes. Note that this is Vaalser*berg*, not Vaalser*heuvel*!

Those are the facts. Leon

Reply to
Leon van Dommelen

Is that above sea level, or did you cheat and measure from the ground?

Reply to
Lanny Chambers

Lanny Chambers wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.kc.sbcglobal.net:

It had to be measured by a dermatologist, they're the ones who measure pimples aren't they?

Reply to
XS11E
1,000 ft. ??? Gee, in Seattle we have half of that in just downtown ! We call 4,000 ft. "foot hills". ( and yes, that is from "Sea Level". (We have that downtown too. :-) I look down from my house and see "saltwater" ( SL) and my house is 500 ft. MSL.Too bad the speed limit is 25 MPH, or it would be a blast to drive up home from the beach ! :-)

Bruce Bing '03 LS

Reply to
BRUCE HASKIN

That's the road I drove all the way from Houston to drive and had my clutch master cylinder give out in the first couple miles of the twisty stuff! By the time I was able to limp it in and get it fixed, I had to head back home! Gotta go again!

Chris

99BBB
Reply to
Chris D'Agnolo

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