The rise of diesel - the continuing story

Interesting article, too bad we don't have much choice with diesel on this side of the pond. They're pushing hybrids on us ignorants here.

cp

"Interesting article, too bad we don't have much choice with diesel on this side of the pond. They're pushing hybrids on us ignorants here. "

I've always thought that a diesel was a better choice than a hybrid. The main advantage of hybrids is that they do get maybe 25% or so better mileage in the EPA tests. However, I've seen news reports where in the real world, that advantage is considerably less. It has something to do with how the EPA test is done and that it doesn't accurately reflect how hybrids behave in the real world. There were some hybrid owners and consumer groups that were after the EPA to change the testing method and I think the EPA was considering it.

The question for me comes down to for the actual extra MPG you can get with a hybrid, is it worth the extra cost and risk? By risk, I mean these cars have some unique components like the motors, batteries, etc, which are sole source and very expensive to replace. We really don't know too much about how long this stuff will last or what the repair costs will turn out to be. On the other hand, diesel is a proven technology that offers very long engine life and only gets better. For me, the hybrid just isn't worth it.

On the third tentacle petrol, diesel, and hybrid cars still use a non-renewable(*) resource that's only going to continue to rise in cost. We need to push those technologies as far as they will go, add new complementary technologies (ceramic diesel hybrids with lithium batteries, anyone?), and gradually wean ourselves off fossil fuels.

(*) Yeah, I know about veggie-oil diesels, and ethanol, and hydrogen, and electric propulsion and all those fringe technologies. None of them is ready today to take over from fossil fuels, and each has positive and negative points. We need to work all of the above and keep an open mind about other options (conservation, public transport, other bizarre concepts) so our grandchildren don't have to deal with it in crisis mode.

Diesels have a bad rep in the US (except with their fans, myself included), and I'm very disappointed that my E320 wagon isn't a diesel with twice the milage of the gasoline engine. If MB gets their act together my next car will be a diesel, if they don't it'll be some Japanese hybrid at 3X the milage...

Agreed, you took the words out of my mouth :)

I was considering a hybrid and slapped myself until I smartened up :)

I hear that after 8 years the battery has to be replaced in a hybrid, costing

8K-10K, it makes absolutely no financial sense to drive a hybrid unless you're a taxi driver. Even then the car will only last around 250K miles.

cp

Too bad we don't have the same choice as they do in Europe. Wouldn't mind a

60mpg car. Maybe when gas prices really cut into people's pockets here we'll get more informed about alternatives and forget about hybrids and demand the diesels they have in Europe. Though if I were to buy a new car now and were only concernced about money I'd buy a Chrysler Sebring or Chevy Malibu, they're selling them here for 13K CAD. Insane. Even if the transmission goes two years down the road it would still be much cheaper than buying some diesel. The ROI on new diesels here takes a bit too long.

cp

There was an article a few months ago in the Canadian motor club magazine trumpeting the virtues of the Toyota Prius hybrid. There are several being used in Victoria, British Columbia, and the savings in fuel over a year added up to CDN$500 compared with a 'standard' taxi (Ford Crown Vic?? they didn't say). Think about it. In conditions absolutely ideal for the hybrid technology, 24hrs a day of stop and go city traffic, the saving over a year was $500 (=600 litres of fuel give or take). How many litres worth of petroleum did it take to refine the several pounds of Cobalt in the battery?. How many non-hybrid cars did Toyota have to sell to make up the couple thousand dollars of loss per Prius? Between 1/2 and 3/4 of the life-cycle energy cost of an automobile are used up in it's manufacture. How long does a Prius last? As long as a Crown Vic or Lincoln Town Car?

I don't know, I'm just askin'.

John M., Sceptic '94 E320

8K-10K, it makes absolutely no financial sense to

around 250K miles.

Did I say 250K miles? I meant kilometers. Actually the article mentioned that the hybrid taxi did 300,000km, NOTHING to write home about, nothing compared to the benz diesel taxis.

trumpeting the virtues of the Toyota Prius hybrid. There

over a year added up to CDN$500 compared with a

conditions absolutely ideal for the hybrid technology,

litres of fuel give or take). How many litres

battery?. How many non-hybrid cars did Toyota have to

3/4 of the life-cycle energy cost of an automobile

Crown Vic or Lincoln Town Car?

$500?? You sure it said that? Perhaps the regulars were propane, which is cheap... either way, hybrids are just a marketing scam to cash in on a trend. They should concentrate fuel cells or on that bacteria that is made up of 50% and can be used in diesel engines.

cp

Here is the article:

or

The taxi driver says he got 330k kms on his taxi. Toyota shipped it back to Japan for evaluation.

John M. replying to his own post

Now I remember this. I would have thought that the saving would be much more than $500/annum. And 100K per year in Victoria is surprising for that pleasant little burg :-) I wonder how many of those taxi will make 700,000-900,000km with no overhauls like the around 10 benz taxi drivers I've spoken to. They claimed NOT to have done any overhauls on either the engine or transmission.

cp

trumpeting the virtues of the Toyota Prius hybrid.

in fuel over a year added up to CDN$500 compared with

Japan for evaluation.

Yet another article

cp

"There was an article a few months ago in the Canadian motor club magazine trumpeting the virtues of the Toyota Prius hybrid. There are several being used in Victoria, British Columbia, and the savings in fuel over a year

added up to CDN$500 compared with a 'standard' taxi (Ford Crown Vic?? they didn't say). Think about it. In conditions absolutely ideal for the hybrid technology, 24hrs a day of stop and go city traffic, the saving over a year was $500 (=600 litres of fuel give or take). How many litres worth of petroleum did it take to refine the several pounds of Cobalt in the battery?. How many non-hybrid cars did Toyota have to sell to make up the couple thousand dollars of loss per Prius? Between 1/2 and 3/4 of the life-cycle energy cost of an automobile are used up in it's manufacture. How long does a Prius last? As long as a Crown Vic or Lincoln Town Car?

I don't know, I'm just askin'. John M., Sceptic '94 E320 "

This article is full of half-truths and distortions. For example, they acknowledge that the test drivers changed their driving habits in terms of acceleration and braking because they were driving a hybrid. Well, if you take any car and accelerate/brake intelligently, that alone will improve fuel economy. Then they say that fuel savings were $500 per year for a taxi compared to the taxi fleet average. That isn't very impressive and could be very misleading. For one thing, taxis rack up a hell of a lot of miles compared to the typical car. Second, what were the taxi fleet's other cars? If you're comparing a small hybrid to more roomy, heavier taxis, then a good deal of the $500 savings has nothing to do with the hybrid technology.

Later in the article they say the hybrid is rated at $500 less in annual fuel consumption tests compared to average. But, again, what is average based on? It likely also includes a lot of bigger, heavier passenger cars, so again the savings are only partly due to hybrid technology. And they point out that this is based on lab tests, not actual usage. They also say the drivers doing actual road tests for the report got 43MPG highway, 40 city which is pretty close to that of a diesel like the VW Jetta.

Most interesting of all is how they completely ignore discussing any maintenance issues. And they proceed to claim that hybrids are not just for early adopters. They cite the taxi company doing tests and considering using them in their fleet. The operative word here is "considering." That actually sounds exactly like the early adopter phase to me. What would be a good and fair comparison would be to look at fuel savings and maintenance cost of hybrids against cars with similar weight, passenger room and performance.

I've been told that the battery packs can cost 5K. Plus, you can guarantee that the government is going to start mandating a "disposal fee", just like they do on tires.

No thanks, I'll take a diesel over any other current engine.

suggest you consider a C320CDI, 221 BHP, 510Nm, 7 speed Auto or a SLK320CDI Triturbo 0-60 in 5.3 seconds

Benz do modern diesels

Triturbo just sounds cool.

.

I'm more of a station wagon kinda guy, not looking for the high end of performance, more looking for milage and range. My E320 4Matic wagon has plenty of power, but 22-ish MPG is embarassing.

Yes, I know, but I want to buy one in the States, and AFAIK they are coming "eventually, maybe".

22-ish MPG for that tank (I mean the car) is excellent.

cp

Yeah, well I can get 28 on the highway if I drive 55, but that's hard to do. 8*) Strangely, the C-class wagon I got as a loaner got the exact same milage!

My point is that in the US we consider that "good for that car", but a modern diesel ought to get at least twice that, but I can't buy one!

55mph in a 3.2? Good luck :-)

I wish I could buy one too, now that I've got a wife, a kid and a mortgage, I won't be buying anything new for a while. Though at

22mpg it's not really worth it financially to buy anything new just to save a couple of bucks on fuel, unless you drive a taxi. Though I wouldn't mind a nice new benz diesel just for the heck of it. They're a bit quiet though, I'd have to amplify the diesel sound :-)

cp

won't be buying anything new for a while. Though at

couple of bucks on fuel, unless you drive a taxi.

a bit quiet though, I'd have to amplify the diesel

Why has diesel been so popular in Europe and not in North America ? And now that diesel seems to be a viable alternative, why isn't GM and Ford not producing them? They probably have a token development program finance by the government looking for an "American solution". A solution that favors the big corporations today with complete disregard for the future of the country. From what I have been reading, I conclude that a) Diesel can be produced from a large variety of sources. b) Should be less expensive to produce. c) The latest engines give about 25% better gas mileage then gasoline engines d) Less pollution.

Diesel engines are today, more expensive but if produced at the same rate the price will came down.

What are the negatives of diesel ?

Some one is going to publish a book called "The politics of diesel"

Vlad