More power to the police in high speed pursuit

While I knew better than to make a plates argument and didn't. I've had to tell the officer that it was not current, they never asked. I had the same physical license for a very long time, like 8-10 years because I could just renew by mail and did so. It was so old that when I was carded people would give it a triple take because they were too young to even know that format once existed.

So criminals will just steal older cars.

That's my other argument against road-side taxation and why speed limits need to make sense to minimize stops. It puts the officer's life at risk to collect a little revenue.

And there's the other risk to the revenue collection. Stops should be minimized to those that are actually needed and the officers wouldn't be put at risk so often.

It's showing the submissiveness to the state. I don't particularly like it, but have done it in the past. It's a social-animal thing really. I would prefer to live in a free country again.

There's a story about a Catholic priest, the pastor of a small parish. He only had one topic he liked to preach about: the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Every Sunday he'd get up and talk about confession. Maybe it was about getting into heaven, maybe it was about being free of mortal sin before taking Communion. But it was always about confession.

One day, the bishop called him in, and told him there'd been complaints; that while confession is a good and worthy topic, it isn't the only good and worthy topic. The Feast of St. Joseph was coming up next Sunday, and he wanted the homily to be about St. Joseph. The priest said, "OK".

Next Sunday, time for the Homily. It started like this:

"Today is the Feast of St. Joseph. A good man; a holy man. Foster father of Our Lord. A working man; a carpenter, by trade. Made things out of wood. You know, confessionals are made of wood..."

You remind me of that priest.

SNIP

Now we are supposed to be mind readesr? If someone is going to run for a simple traffic infraction, how are cops supposed to know why? Is it because they just killed their cheating girlfriend, robbed a 7/11, or whatever? Afterall, the girls body may not be found for a few days.

People run for the stupidest reasons... "because I didn't have my license with me", "because I had a joint in my purse", or the one I really liked was, "because I didn't know if you were really a cop" (marked vehicle, gumballs, siren). As for pursuits, someone who is whacked out on drugs, drunk, mentally ill, or even a diabetic in insulin shock, has no idea what they are doing. Doesn't matter if there is a cop present or not. They'll roll right through an intersection they didn't see, or a school zone filled with kids, or even down the wrong side of the freeway. Of course they also run because they news choppers have put them on TV for their 15 minutes of fame. Want to lower the rates of chases? Pass a law which prohibits the news choppers from making a chase a big production for the evening news. Many of the idiots being chased have been filmed waving to the choppers.... like 'hey, momma and you homies, look at me!'

But you'd say just let them go and get them later. Want to explain that to the families of the people they happen to kill? One night I had to have one of my best friends relieved of duty in order to explain to him how a drunk crossed the centerline and hit his wife head on, killing her, their son, and their unborn child. The drunk survived. And he wasn't being chased.

Then you'll see someone driving like a nut, at speed, who cuts you off and you'll complain because the cop you see cruising behind you didn't do anything.

Uh, Brent, I'm talking in general terms as they apply to the original scenario in this thread. I have no clue about your personal experience, nor do I care, as it careens askew of the drift. Perhaps you need to stir up some lye and douche the little rodent that has taken up residence in your sphincter.

The older cars will be retrofitted when you renew your registration.

I think you are confusing taxation with penalties. The former is a surcharge levied against goods or wages, and disassociated from criminal action. The latter is a fee exacted upon someone who has broken a law, hopefully a deterrent to further disobedience.

It's virtually impossible for any officer to know which are "needed" and which aren't prior to a stop. Envision the police pulling over someone for failing to signal a lane change, and finding the driver way over the Blood Alcohol level and still miles from home. Necessary? You need some schooling in the streetside implementation of Probable Cause.

As far as revenue goes, you also need to understand that no agency has bottomless funding. It costs money not only to respond to domestic disturbances and overt crimes, but also to investigate covert criminal activity and build cases for submission to the District Attorney's office. This stuff adds up, and sometimes the well runs dry. Where's the money gonna come from?

And what about the small agencies? How about Kid Yahoo's cousin deciding to run from the law, and 3 of the 6 local PD's car get wrecked in the process? How would you like to need emergency assistance in that town and not get it because they have no bucks for replacement vehicles?

You're living in a dream if you think this country has ever been "free". The ability to move about relatively unhindered has a price. The U.S. has more taxes and fees than any other country in the world. You PAY for your "freedom". Matter of fact, the "roadside revenue" that you complain endlessly about is one of the *only* payouts that you can actually avoid by your own actions.

If you are feeling overwhelmed by American society, I suggest seriously looking into residing elsewhere. You will not be alone. There are enclaves of former Americans all over the place. These days, the Internet helps diffuse much of the homesickness.

Or, you could get retribution for being submissive to authority and kill the next cop that pulls you over. Then, if you are still alive the next day, you will find that you will be rewarded with that "free" living you crave so much. Free meals. Free exercise time. Free showers (don't drop the soap). For the rest of your life. Shit, how cool is it that fines levied on against speeders will pay for your very own cell?

Sounds really good, doesn't it, Brent? Really, really good. What are you waiting for?

SNIP

Thanks. I appreciate being lumped in with the comparatively small percentage of bad cops just as I am sure the good auto mechanics appreciate being lumped in with the bad ones, good military love being judged by the small numbers of bad, ete etc etc. Such stories are always the headline grabbers, while the story of the cop who found the lost child, or stopped to fix the chain on a child bike, helped an old lady out of a snow bank, etc, will hardly ever be news worthy.

First, in this particular case, the suspect was in violation for the initial offense AND for failing to stops, evading, etc, and took the responsibility upon himself. This is much the same as walking into a

As I see it, as a citizen of this country, one of our problems is that we do not make the "criminal" take full responsibility for their actions. We even take it to the point that it wasn't the criminal's fault... he was brought up by abusive parents, or lived in a bad part of town, or didn't get his ration of twinkies.

And while it's not your fault that you have not, or can't, until you have been in the position of the cop, and experienced what he went through at the time, you can't know what it's like. I'll never know what it's like to be a surgeon who makes a decision which results in someone being crippled for life because the surgeon though the best decision was being made at the time.

Cops, surgeons, auto mechanics, etc.... We're all humans. we make the best decisions we can, given our experiences and training. Most of the time what we do is right, but sometimes it is wrong. The difference is that not everyone has to make choices which risk the lives of others. That is a major load to carry, and it takes special people who are willing to make those choices, whether it's the mechanic who decides torquing a bolt to the required degree, or a soldier in combat, or a cop.

Bad cops, like bad surgeons, should be taken care of, but good cops, good surgeons, etc, who make what they believe to be the best choices under given circumstances should not be taken to the gallows.

Finally, as many of you will have experienced, if you think it is bad in the US of A, go overseas. Places like Mexico where bribery of cops is common practice on a traffic stop. Panama where the police had orders to shoot on sight any shoplifter regardless of age. Many countries where the culture mandates that you ignore your own rights and tell a cop the truth no matter what the question.

Do we have problems? Yes. And we always will until Wells' "Big Brother" society is commonplace. But, it could be a lot worse. We could have total anarchy, where there are essentially no controls.

Let's see, you reply to my post with your personal experience or belief that asking if an address is current is SOP. My personal experience is

I see.... control by the authorities for all. Track and log everyone and everything. If this goes in typical fashion you will proceed to call me paranoid because I don't like this sort of thing.... but who is really the paranoid? Those that opposes this sort of monitoring and control or the those demanding it to stop those they are affraid of?

Nope, I see things in their effective terms. There isn't a crime in going

When speed limits are set lower than the vast majority of people drive, it is effectively a selectively applied tax on driving.

Really? usually in these arguments I'm told that the officer will only go after those bad people. That it is paranoia to think that one would be picked out of the traffic stream if one is just going along with the flow (which is over the posted limit). Glad you agree with me. It's a risky way to go about collecting monies for one's employer.

You're missing the point. By making the speed limit such that nearly every driver is a violator, it makes for a great number of stops where then bad decisions may be made, where no stop was even needed because there wasn't any unsafe driving (as defined by what is normal and reasonable, and safe by the actions of those driving upon the road). Just driving faster than arbitary taxation standard.

Those in elected office have no problem redirecting tax monies away from police departments and other things people support and then whining for a tax increase to keep the wanted services going. Far better than redefining the vast majority of people as law breakers and then taking the monies with armed man at the side of the road.

Well I guess they'll just have to drop the speed limit on the highway just outside of the populated area of town from 50mph to 35mph and raise some cash then, right? Of course that will result in more people that run from the law and more wrecked police cruisers to pay for so they'll have to drop it to 25mph and put a few RLCs and cut the yellow light timing to maximize the number of violators... but then they'll be called out for the increased number of (rear-end) collisions at the light, but don't worry that can be used to justify more RLCs....

Perhaps. But I know what it is supposed to be.

Comrade, do you have your papers? This checkpoint is here for your safety, comrade. Sorry comrade, your papers are not in order.... Remember when we looked down on the soviet block nations for that sort of thing? Now it's done here. Who really won that cold war?

No shit.

Someone has to pay the guards.

If I include the harrassment from other drivers because I am going so slow (posted limit), being rear ended, etc and so forth I hardly think I am coming out ahead. I am simply denying the money to the government(s) that created the problem, but I am not avoiding costs and taking on greater risks to boot.

Ye olde love or leave it. How dare I want things done properly. I should just shut the f*ck up and get the f*ck out.

Threats.... Always a good way to rule..... a third world police state kleptocracy or a tyranny like China.

Why do you have such a problem with liberty? Why are you so affraid of your fellow citizens that you need them to be tracked, monitored, controled, sheepdoged by men with guns and badges? Or is it that you don't want real responsibilty? You prefer to look to a parental government to tell you what you should do, how you should live, to protect you? Or is it just laziness... some people appear to like being a dependent. Their freedom, their liberty is a small price to pay for the need to not have to worry about things. Or maybe you're on the other end of it all. Maybe you get a perverse joy that comes with kicking people around, making them beg and be submissive? Which are you CJ?

To respond in a very concise manner.... :0) Good One!

Seems that those who complain most about traffic enforcement are those who desire to violate the laws society installs without fear of punishment. And the best way to achieve that is to tie the hands of those whose job it is to enforce the laws. The same people who will scream the loudest when law enforcement doesn't protect them from those who would violate those same laws.

Why go to Mexico? Mexico in multiple ways is coming to us.

And interesting couple of choices. In anarchy we need to fight off the small percentage of our fellow man who seek to control us and take from us. For the other option, that same small percentage is in charge where they control us, take from us at will, and we live at their mercy.

Try going with the flow in Texas with Cali plates...happened to me 2 times, I was in the middle of the pack both times....

This tired old thing, and rather misplaced when aimed towards me.

I want the laws of society to match the reasonable and normal behavior of those in the society. On the contrary, I am often the one person in the immediate area that is obeying _ALL_ aspects of the vehicle code, including the number on the sign that the vast majority of society rejects as (and demonstrates it is not) the maximum safe speed of travel.

The best solution is to have laws that are obeyed because they make sense, not because someone with a badge and gun may issue a penalty. It's really difficult to take an underposted speed limit seriously when even the cops, those enforcing it, don't even bother to obey it.

Again, quite the contary. I don't think law enforcement is going to do anything to protect me. I have to protect myself. Not to mention the cost of having law enforcement take that responsibility is far too high, and not in just in money.

Here are some facts for you to ponder.

I love it. You whine about how we don't make the "criminal" responsible for his actions. Fine, make him responsible. Now, how about making the COP responsible for HIS actions!! The cop does not HAVE to engage in a high speed pursuit. But you want to absolve the cop of all responsibility if anyone gets injured as if the cop had no choice in the matter. The fact is, just as the criminal makes a choice or running or not, the cop makes a choice of pursuing or not. BOTH should be held accountable for their actions. But the cops never have the balls to take responsibility for their decisions. Time and time again the cops whine like the pussy's they are whenever they screw up and someone try's to hold them accountable.

We even take it to the point that it wasn't the criminal's

SNIP

WRONGO, Brent. There are two forms of speed limits. One is posted, and the other is governed by conditions (snow, traffic, wind, etc). Just because the law says you can go 75mph does not mean it is safe to do so, and therefore the "speed too fast for conditions" applies for the safety of other motorists as well as yourself.

What you propose then is to remove all speed limits just because somebody out there wants to go faster than the posted limit. Hiuman nature says that no matter where you set the bar, there will be people who want to pass it. Just look at the people who speed to get from point A to point B compared to those who do not speed, and you see the time saved is insignificant, so why do they speed? Human nature.

How about if we just tell the cops not to stop anyone so that they will never be at risk?

But not higher....

In some ways it beats the anarchy you seem to promote.

Because society needs controls, and someone has to be the controllers. Obviously, you don't agree with following the rules, even though your actions risk the safety of others. Now, if everyone thought the way you do, we'd have total confusion. Every society in history has had controls and enforcers. This is not the perfect dream world you would have it be. While your driving may be perfect even without following the rules, all it takes it someone else who is not so perfect, to smear you and those you love all over the roadway.

That's hardly the situation Brent was illustrating. HE was talking about those areas where it's perfectly safe to go 75, as all the other traffic going 75 will attest even though an arbitrarily low 55 limit has been posted.

It worked well in several states and they didn't end it because of safety, they ended it because of blackmail by the federal gvt. The federal gvt never met a citizen they didn't want to control in every aspect of their lives.

Hiuman

Studies have shown that speed limits have very little effect on the speeds that people drive. Studies have also shown that the vast majority of drivers drive at a safe speed. The ONLY purpose of speed limits is to make it easy to convict people of speeding because it eliminates the need to show they did anything unsafe, the corrupt system merely has to demonstrate they were going faster then an arbitrary number on a sign even if they were driving perfectly safely and were the ONLY person for 10 miles. If someone is actually driving too fast then the cops ought to be able to PROVE it, but you know that in almost all cases the people cited are not driving "too fast", they are merely driving at a speed faster then the numbers painted on a signboard.

Just look at the people who speed to get from

This raises a very interesting situation. You refer to "people who speed". What does that mean? Do you mean people who are going so fast that they are creating a hazard? Or do you mean they are merely going faster then the numbers painted on a piece of aluminum? If it's the first, then whether they save time or not is beside the point, if they are creating a hazard then they should be ticketed, not because they are "speeding" but because they are creating a hazard. If it's the second, why should you or anyone else care what speed they are going if they are not creating a hazard and again, it really doesn't matter how much time they may or may not save. Some of us are just more comfortable driving 70 then driving 60. If everyone else is driving 67,even if there is 60 painted on the aluminum, 70 is not "speeding" in any sense that should matter to anyone but those seeking to generate revenue.

I don't see why the police chased him at all for a mere 73 mph. I routinely travel at 91 mph and no one ever stops me.

sincerely,

John Corz> Let's see if I have this right...

Not bad... Just out of the hospital, and taking a little break up in Pawtucket? Good for you, Guvn'r.

Were you in such a hurry to meet Imus, or was it all of those Rutgers girls under one roof?

dwight

Actually, I hate the way society here has devolved since I was a kid. If you can find a way to change it for the better (notice I did not say "make it free again"), then get with the program.

Yep, I've always enjoyed whacking the clueless upside the head. I dislike whiners who can do nothing about their favorite moaning topics but more whining.

How many years ago was it that you and I first got into it? 5 or 6? At that time, you were bitching about some chick at a gas station who dissed you because you got perverse joy out of circling around to drool over her or something juvenile like that. Somehow, I get the feeling that you have little more than whine about whatever the whole damn time I've been out of this newsgroup.

I gave you a solution that was serious. Despite Spike's examples, there are American societies in other countries that may lower your ingestion of Pepto Bismol. A friend of mine who got tired of the L.A. rat race in the 80's moved to Cabo San Lucas, and told me he would never come back here. He didn't speak Spanish at the time, and didn't need to where he went. I'm not staying in this country for my retirement, either.

Stop freaking out about everything and learn to see the Big Picture.

So it's a bright sunny day on the interstate and everyone is doing 75mph+ and I am supposed to sit there like a stone in the river doing 55mph or less because that's what the sign says? Or are you trying to say that there is another speed limit that lets me do 75mph legally in good conditions like everyone else? Because to tell you the truth, the speed limit on many of the roads I drive, is really about the max one can safely do in a blizzard.

He sets up the strawman.....

And he actually fails to knock it down.

Um no. Stop thinking in terms of authority and obedence. let go of that dynamic. The vast majority of people choose safe and reasonable speeds. Study after study after study has shown this. The government sets the speed limit via the 'pull-a-number-out-of-someone's-ass' method or they use the table-method (tables created for a broken down model T and full of assumptions instead of real data) instead of a the best to date engineering method, the 85th percentile method which uses actual data.

If proper methods were used, enforcement could be concentrated on the small percentage of drivers where it is actually needed. Instead, officers pick and choose out a population where almost everyone is exceeding the posted limit.

Strawman.

Another strawman. What is it with you control freaks? Is anything that you don't have arm guards lording over people anarchy to you?

Oh? We have to be RULED, by other men? By criminal men? Because that is what controlling government attracts like bugs to a light. This is supposed to be a free society where indiviudal liberty is respected, not a controlled society. You want a controlled society, you move to north korea. I want a free one that values individual liberty, and last I checked, the USA was the _ONLY_ nation that was even supposed to be that way.

I follow them, that's how I know how assinine they are.

I agree, driving the posted speed limit around here is very risky. According to every study, driving a couple standard devations BELOW the flow speed as I often do translates to much higer collision rates.

Have you been following me around when I drive? Obviously not. I follow the vehicle code, even aspects of the vehicle code that even cops don't know, to the letter.

And silly me, all I want is the rules to be match what the vast majority of people in what is supposed to be a free nation that values liberty where representives are elected to follow the will of the people to match the will of the people. Silly me... we're just supposed to obey our slave masters and their hired thugs...

Because properly setting a speed limit is so damn hard... I mean we've only known how to do it the right way since the 1940s. It's the 21st century and we still do things like it's 1932.

As if posting 55mph signs instead of 75mph signs is going to change that. Actually, 55mph signs make it much more likely IMO. Because the speed limits are so assinine, so low, people have taken to think the rest of the vehicle code is nonsense too. Underposted speed limits have done a great deal of harm IMO. It's about time to start undoing it.