Let me just jump in here with a quick little story. When I went to Finland in June, I noticed something incredibly disturbing that's a trend among the younger people there; Stars and Bars. It irritates the holy SHIT out of me. Especially when I saw a *gorgeous*
67 'Stang with the Stars and Bars stretched across the back window. It made me sick. Why is it so irritating to me? Because they have NO earthly idea what the hell that flag stood for back in the Civil War, nor what it means to people right now. They just think "it's cool". I lived in a town in Florida for 4 years where NASTY (as opposed to Jeff Foxworthy type) redneck was the norm. Stars and Bars has a whole f'ed up meaning for them. It means Southern pride amongst those who are prejudiced. That is the MAJORITY of the people down here proudly displaying that flag. It's all about the Good Ol' Boys and their wish to own slaves to this day. Look at the Stars and Bars with the saying "The South Will Rise Again". That's not for want of having the right to make independant laws. It's for the justification and want of slavery. It's a load of narrow-minded bullshit coming from wastes of space. And no, that's not just a figment of my imagination. I've lived in the south long enough to know what people think and do. It's an observation.
And by south, I mean this particular area of Florida. I don't speak for all states. I mean right here, where I'm at in a small town just outside of Orlando. Just thought I'd clarify before some other southerners jump my shit. :)
Spike, very interesting comments. Not to dredge up the ol' political thing, but I think some of your points show why there is such a deep schism in this country right now. People feel very strongly about the direction they want to go in, and there are vast differences in those directions.
Kidd Andersson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@individual.net:
You're talking about parts of the _true_ south. A lot of Florida above Lake Okeechobee is like that. Even more 'southern' are places in Georgia and South Carolina.
Down here in SoFla it's not so much the south as it is a huge melting pot of Northerners, Blacks, Cubans, and some natives with a large smattering of roughly two dozen others (in no particular order).
Personally, I don't think the Civil War was the beginning of the erosion of the founding ideals of our Country. While it is another discussion, I think the real erosion started when the New Deal legislation was passed followed by many other laws in the 1930's. It was the beginning of a socialist trend that persists today.
Anything is possible but not necessarily probable. I don't think it is just "right wingers" that are drawing the lines in the sand. It is people that have good common sense and are tired of fringe groups pushing their agenda down the throats of the rest of us. Gay marriage is a good example of this. The majority of whites, blacks, hispanics, republicans and even democrats don't support it and they let their displeasure be known in the last election. These people are not out to persecute gays and everyone knows it. If they were, there would be a lot of dead gays or they would be deported. Gays can get everything they want through civil unions and we all know it, as do the gays themselves.
I lived in the panhandle area in the early 60s, and Texas & Mississippi in the late 60s. They still had the lines painted in parking lots like McDonalds where blacks got served on one side and whites on the other. But, there appeared to be less of the good ol' boy sentiment even then, especially in the panhandle. I'd guess that the same would apply to the tourist centers around Disneyworld, etc. People of color spend money just like us bleached out people : )
Actually, I have seen far worse bigotry in the north, which may seem hard to believe. It's all over the north, but, people are far less apt to openly display such beliefs. Personally, I think even the way it is in some of the southern strongholds is better because there's less say one thing but believe another.
Having seen the changes from the 60s to now, I can see there will always be those pockets of such feelings, but overall, I don't think it's a majority view anymore, and I sure don't think it's because so many want to own slaves. However, I can see where the good ol boy types might feel that way toward Puerto Ricans, Cubans, etc, today.
There has been a major change in demographics throughout the US. The south is no exception. Over time, external influences have a way of creeping in. Cities change the fastest, but small towns eventually follow.
Now that, I can heartily agree with... yet (well, at least I didn't say "but"), had the New Deal programs not been initiated to jumpstart the economy of the Depression Era, it is a big question what we would have for government today. Some feel that the only other course may have led to martial law and then to a dictatorship.
It is hard to say what would have happened without the New Deal legislation. Personally, I don't think it would have been all doom and gloom. Perhaps the market would have corrected itself and while it would have been painful, it just might have been the best course of action in the long run. IMO, i t was WWII that got us out of the Depression, not Roosevelt or his ideas. He just gave the unemployed a "government tit" to suck on as a distraction while the market, in conjunction with WWII, really took care of the economic problems.
Spike, while we may not agree on the Confederate flag we do see many other issues the same way. ;)
IMO, this reinforces just how much the war was fought over the right to own slaves. If it wasn't then the Southern whites would not have felt the need to oppress the blacks after they were freed. They basically tried to "legalize" the old ways of slavery by controlling the blacks though other means. It didn't help that the North didn't do much to help the plight of the former slaves after the war was over.
There are plenty of ways to show support for Southern pride, disdain for government control over people, free speech and heritage that don't involve flying a flag that is offense to others. I personally don't like big government, love free speech, am proud of my heritage and the Confederate flag, IMO, stands for nothing in this regard. I show support for my beliefs in how I vote and what I say to others. I don't wave a flag that is deeply insulting to many people and reminds them of a time when their ancestors were treated no better than, and in many ways worse than, farm animals. I firmly believe that we all need to move forward regarding race relations. Just as many feel the blacks need to get over it and move on so do many whites, many of which fly the Confederate flag.
Then these people need to understand what that flag means to blacks and many others. I think that anyone that has concern over others feeling would opt to not display it. This is just my opinion. There are things that my Father believed that I know were wrong. I don't love him any less or feel ashamed of my heritage. I'm sure he felt the same way about his Father as do many of us whether we are white, black or green.
I befriended a black coworker when I got out of college and we had many, many discussions about racism. We both agreed that our father's were way more racist that either of us but some of that stayed with us and we had both worked hard to eliminate it from ourselves. Neither of our fathers were bad men and they really didn't do anything to ever hurt another person just because they were a different color. They had ingrained the stereo types of whites and blacks from their fathers and family members. The funny thing is that me and my black coworker had many more similarities than differences. This ranged from political and social to moral views. It was a great friendship for me since I had just come to the Washington, DC area after living a sheltered life in small town Midwest. In addition to him I had Arabic, Persian, African, European, Oriental and many other nationalities as friends. They all proved to be great people and it reinforced to me that being a good person has absolutely nothing to do with your religion, nationality or skin color. The experience made me a much better person and I am truly greatfull for it.
I don't think the history books regarding the Civil War are warped much at all. It was a war about economics of the South with particular regard to owning slaves and preservation of the Union. That is what you will read in most all books that are studied in schools today. There is not much in the way of propaganda, IMO.
I'm in agreement with the last post. I fly my flag because of my own reasons, not the ones that viewers of my flag hold dear. Until there is a true 'right to not be offended', I will continue to fly it whenever I want to, and will always be available to explain my reasons to those inquisitive enough to ask for them, just like the OP did.
Anyone can armchair quarterback, but it takes a degree of education and insight to realize that there's no way to really KNOW how it might actually have gone if a different path were selected.
That's where people can discuss issues without emotion clouding things. Any of us can second guess the President (any President), but there is no way to know the result of different choices of action. No way to really know what may have been in his (any his) mind when he made the choices he went with. I am reminded of the Missiles of October. Had Khrushchev installed the missiles without JFK confronting him, the entire hemisphere might be different today. Then again, maybe not.
In college, as in life, the people I respected most, were those who could discuss a subject objectively. And those who, when asked a question, were not afraid or embarrassed to say they did not know the answer.
As any student of US history would know, the US economy was started with a war, and has always been propelled by war. Then if one looks at the economies of other nations and civilizations, the same thing shines through. Rome, Aztecs, Egyptians, Vikings, etc.
And, just so you know : ) I don't fly the battle flag. But (dang, there I go saying "but") my US Flag flys proudly over the front of my home.
All wars are, in some way, based upon economy, and a way of life. Human nature is to resist change. The sharecropping conditions could have been greatly lessened if the North had taken action. They didn't. Instead, they sought to make a profit, and sent the carpetbaggers south in droves. No, they weren't ordered south, but the North did nothing to halt the profiteering.
In context, we must, of necessity, consider that the "norm" at the time of the Civil War, even though the eventual end of slavery may have been within view. was to view blacks as property; no different than a tractor today. Was it wrong? By our standards today, it sure was wrong. Yet, For us to judge today the actions and beliefs of people back then is really not proper, although we may freely disagree with those actions and beliefs.
Think of people 1000 years from now looking back and condemning people today for eating meat, or for driving cars, or any other concept which is considered the "norm" by today's standards.
We can say that slavery was bad, and we can judge slavery as bad, but how can we judge people for doing what was commonly accepted when and where they existed?
I understand that the people alive DURING the Civil War were a product of the social environment of their times. The thing is that TODAY we know what most believed regarding slavery in the 1860's was wrong. This is why I don't understand the need for many to fly a flag that stood for something we know today is not right. The South wanted their freedom from the Union which included the freedom to own slaves. It is part of our history but, IMO, it is not a part that any of us should be proud of under today's standards of right and wrong.
As for history judging us, that is the way of the world. I just hope we can, as a species, keep advancing our ideals and I hope people look back on us 1,000 years from now and think we were barbaric. To me, that will be a good thing. You failed to mention the one thing that we do today that, IMO, will be viewed as a horrific crime against humanity on the order of any mass extermination of humans ever committed and that is abortion. I'm not a religious fanatic about it. I see it purely as a human rights issue... that is the right of a conceived human being to be born. The shame is that most all abortions done today are for retroactive birth control. For me that is not nearly a good enough reason to terminate a life. I truly hope that a person looking back at us 1,000 years from now will feel the same way.
I don't dispute what you say about the flag. And yet, Can you imagine how some Japanese Americans might feel about the American flag after they had their homes taken, businesses closed, and were shipped of to God forsaken places in the desert during WWII for doing nothing more wrong than being of Japanese descent? And they did not get anything back when the war ended. Or that many had relatives back in Japan who were cremated in an instant, or poisoned by radiation? Family and ancestors are very important to the Japanese.
I don't say that they do feel bitter when they see the flag waving, but what if they did? Should we stop flying the flag? Or change it's design to appease their feelings? For the way we treated fellow Americans, in a way we did not do to German Americans, Italian Americans, etc.
I ask again. Where does it end?
One of my heroes is Colin Powell when it comes to race issues. The idea that it is time to quit using such excuses to hold oneself back, or to not even try.
My personal feeling is that we need to rid ourselves of the assigned racial tags. It seems strange that there should be Black Americans when I don't see people walking around saying 'I'm a Dutch American, or whatever. yes, such groups still recognize and celebrate their heritage, but they seem to be Americans first, and Dutch or whatever second. I don't go around proclaiming myself to be a White-Anglo-Celtic-German-Scottish-Cherokee-Oneida-Italian American. I was born an American, and I hope to die an American. Racial tags do irritate many who fall into the lump of "white", especially when used to give preferential treatment to any group over another. It's understood why it came about, but we are actually discriminating against people whose ancestors immigrated here after slavery ended, and people whose ancestors never owned slaves, nor would have approved of slavery.
I have mentioned how some of us see the erosion of society. This is one of those areas. Once people immigrated to become Americans. Now they immigrate and Americans are expected to adapt to them. i still believe we should all be Americans first, and heritage second, along with political views and the rest. (Of course this doesn't apply, nor is it intended as an affront to members of this august group who may be from other nations.)
I realize that's not pc, but it is discrimination used to eliminate discrimination. That, to me, has never made sense. How can you teach people not to discriminate, when you teaching tool is discrimination against them?
Kinda like a TV evangelist who wants money ... not to feed the starving people and thereby induce them to become Christian, but to provide them with a TV and a VCR and a tape about Christian love. What does a starving person care about that when they have no idea when the next meal will come.
In the words of Rodney King, "C-c-c-c-an't we all just get along?" Spike
MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.