205 CTI: snapped timing belt

Hello,
I changed the timing-belt on my CTI yesterday, also changed the tensioner. The engine was running fine afterwards, no unusual noise,
absolutely nothing unusual actually, but after some 4 or 5 km the belt snapped.
First question: Could it be that the belt snapped because I put too much tension on it via the new tensioner? This is about the only explanation I can think of. A little bit of stupidity on my side there, thinking the belt needed to be real tight, reading afterwards that it did not need to be _that_ tight. :-(
Second (more important) question: Is there any way I can tell whether valves / valve stems or pistons are damaged without taking the cylinder head off? And how likely is it that they are damaged? I know, pretty likely, but hope dies last.
If I have to take the head off ... Anyone know how to detach the enginemount on the right side of the engine from the cylinder head without taking the whole engine out beforehand? There appears to be a pretty long screw, but only some 2 cm room to take it out.
Thanks!
Norman
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Hi,

Actually snapped?? Sounds like a defective belt - could be a warranty claim.

It's probably not possible to damage a healthy timing-belt that way, considering how tough they are - but you'd certainly overload the camshaft and tensioner bearings and 'run' them prematurely by over-tensioning.

In your place, I'd remove the plugs, wind the pistons back so they're all about halfway down the bores (i.e. well clear of the valve gear), shine a powerful light down the plug-hole, wind one pair of pistons up at a time and try to see whether I could spot any bright dents in the crowns. If I saw none, I'd try to double-check that there's no interference between piston-crown and valve-gear by setting the camshaft with any one pair of valves open together and rocking (i.e. both at maximum lift, with maximum possibility of interaction with the piston crowns), and then winding the crank round with a short (30cm) wrench to find out whether I could feel any resistance (at all). If I met none, it would probably be safe to assume that I'd gotten away with it.

Can't help with that part - ask a counter-man or mechanic at the local Peugeot dealership. (Is it possible that the mounting bolts should be removed from the chassis end of the mounting, leaving the engine mounting attached to the head? How would you get the whole engine out without removing the mounting-bolts first?)

Good luck - please post your results, so that we all find out something practical that we can use in future.
Regards
Philip
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Hi,
thanks for the quick answer.
On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:10:22 +0100, Philip Andrews wrote:

Yes, snapped. I tought that it was rather strange, too. And there are no marks whatsoever on the belt where it could 've been grinding. Trouble is, that on DIY they refuse warranty, assuming that _you_ made the mistake.

Good idea, will try that first. Is it normal BTW that when turning the camshaft (pistons in secure position!) that it does not turn all the way around freely but rather feels like it needs to overcome some resistance at the point when the cams start pressing down the valves? (horrible english, but cars are not my profession, and I'm german)

Well ... it is quite a large block of metal, and one screw is attached to the head, two others to the block. Maybe I try and have a go to remove the two bolts that are attached to the block and then take the head out with the mount. But how do I hold up the engine then, since the hook, where you are supposed to lift the whole unit up (i.e. for belt change), is mounted to the head.

Like: Never touch your Timing Belt?
I had done some work on the engine before, getting rid of the 'kangaroo' effect and quite poor low-rev performance of the CTI/GTI that is commonly described in this group. The car _DID_ run like a dream afterwards. Wanted to post it altogether as a story of success. Maybe later.
Bye
Norman
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Hiiii,

Then, it was 'defective in manufacture'.

An easy get-out - bad news for you, though. 'Don't buy another product from that maker (or factor)' is all you can win from this accident.

(No worries about 'language' - I'll try to keep it simple.) The answer is 'yes, it is' - because you're applying leverage against the progressive increase of pressure of the valve-springs by turning the camshaft . You'll feel the same periodic 'notchiness' (i.e. a steady increase and decrease of resistance) as you cycle right round two complete turns of the camshaft. If you take the cam-cover off and watch the valve-gear while feeling what's happening at your hands, you'll quickly come to understand why this is so.

local
I would use a scissor-jack under the sump (if it looks as though it's a strong, cast item), using a large, thick, strong block of wood to spread the load, before trying to remove the engine-mounting bolts. That method will support the weight of the engine properly when the engine-mounting is detached, and will not cause damage to the sump.

something
No - what you've struck is simple bad luck with a defective product. I have never heard of a timing-belt snapping before - in fact, they don't even strip the teeth off when they're about 3 times overdue for a change on mileage, and under-tensioned as well - so. don't be discouraged by this event.

Best of luck - let us know how things go.
Regards
Philip
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Hi,

Raise the engine from oil tank (underneath the engine), then remove the engine mount. 17mm bolts, IIRC.
Regards, G.T snipped-for-privacy@worldonline.fr 205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : http://205d.fr.st
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 19:16:23 +0200, G.T wrote:

Had the same idea, but was wondering whether the oil tank would hold the weight and didn't want to ruin yet another part.
Bye
Norman
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wrote:

Yes it will hold the weight as long as you jack it up in the corner by the sump plug and not directly in the middle. Another way of checking for damage to the valves is to check the valeve clearances. Remove the top cover and check the camshaft. In extreme cases this can break, also the bearing caps. If all ok check the clearances. Inlet .20mm, exhaust .40mm. Was it a genuine Peugeot belt? What year is the CTi? Up to approx 1992 the belt tensioner was spring tensioned and was pretty much foolproof. After that it was a manual tensioner, and supposed ti use a SEEM tensioner tool.
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Hello,

Of course, I thought it was needless to give the precision. For a basic work like cambelt kit change, you could also hook the head, there's something for it on right side of the lump, but not for removing head, of course. This "something" (don't know the word, sorry) being bolted to head.

No need of asking for the system used, because we are in 2004, and belt kit should have been changed at least once, and I guess there is only one spare kit available. It is the same with "classic" belts, replaced by HSN belts, around '92, too.
Regards, G.T snipped-for-privacy@worldonline.fr 205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : http://205d.fr.st
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Thank you all for your replies. I will keep you informed on the proceedings.
On Mon, 31 May 2004 22:40:15 +0100, Nigel wrote:

I have taken the sump off earlier, and it really did not look very sturdy. But with a chunk of wood underneath, I might try it.

Camshaft is fine, so are the bearings. Was the first thing I looked after when I had the car back home. Checking Clearance sounds like a good idea, so is philip's idea to look in through the spark-plug holes with a bright light. Gonna try both and see.

No, the belt was aftermarket, so was the tensioner. The car is from '93. The tensioner does not appear to have a spring, it looks basically like a quite big ball-bearing with an eccentric mounting hole and another square hole to apply tension.
Bye
Norman
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wrote:

Then I suggest when you rebuild, you use a genuine Peugeot belt abd tensioner. OK it may cost more, but it should not break. As for tensioning, it is a manual tensioner and needs to be done with care. Set the tension so that you can twist the belt approx. 45 degrees. Tighten all bolts, remove any timing pins, replace the bottom pulley and bolt without the belt cover, and start the engine. Rev to 2000 and back to idle, while watching the belt on the long run, from camshaft pulley to crankshaft pulley. Ther should be no "whip" as the engine goes to idle, and also no whine. If there is any whip then tighten slightly and retest. If there is excessive whine then loosen slightly. A slight whine is ok, and I have found it disappears after a while. Of course you could invest in a SEEM tensioner tool . . . . . !!!!!
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