Coolant leaking in engine

I bought a warranty with the car from a 3rd party company. It covers powertrain, as well as all seals and gaskets. It is a 12,000 km or 12 month warranty. Hope that answers your question.

I would stop driving it now. By the time you are seeing milky stuff on the dipstick your oil is part oil, part water. The extra wear on bearings, etc. can be severe.

John

Thanks for the response. I have had the repair done, and it seems to be fine now.

I'm coming into this thread a bit late, so have patience.

Is Dexcool that pink shit GM uses? What is so bad about it? in the first 10,000 miles on my GTP 2k, I developed a water pump leak. So I added the normal green antifreeze to tide me over till I could be home long enough to get it in for warranty work. The mechanic had a fit because I mixed.

Please expla>Oh you didnt buy new from a dealer I take it. There was a poster that

Ok well first off its supposed to be orange. The white bottle kinda=20 throws the color off a bit. Your water pump sounds like a defect in=20 machining not from coolant. My dad put 6 years and 140k miles on his=20 truck with the same coolant (plus fills from frost plug leak) before his=20 pump went. Usually from what I've seen the coolant that goes bad happens=20 because people developed leaks in their cooling systems from gm's bad=20 gaskets and they ran their cars for so long with air in the system that=20 it muddies the coolant. When they finally get an engine light or look at=20 in their radiators what they usually see is sludge being left over from=20 burning coolant (because they have air in their systems). Of course=20 since they know nothing about the gasket problems they blaim dexcool.=20 Then when you tell them it was a gasket issue and prolonged driving on a=20 low system some will still blaim dexcool and blaim the failed gaskets on=20 dexcool as well... Just total ignorance... Like I said bad news travels fast. If all the people that had no=20 problems with dexcool posted you would see a much different story. The=20 conventional green stuff isnt great on aluminum parts. I got a pic that=20 shows white silica crust bonded onto a water neck. That silica junk=20 tends to eat away at aluminum just as if it were in a sand blaster.=20 Thats why they developed dexcool.=20

In article , gtpsc2000@?

0100?yahoo.com says...

"Bon·ne·ville" wrote

Whoa...there, Bonneville. If you are right, (and I've never had this question answered satisfactorily yet) and the problem with dexcool is "air in the system"....why did the older green antifreeze never exhibit this kind of problem? The same type of intake gaskets were present on the earlier 3100 engines that used green coolant and they did not have anywhere near the intake manifold gasket leaks as the later models that used dexcool. Of course, leaks still developed on older vehicles that used green coolant, but you didn't have the mud developing that you do with dexcool. Dexcool might not be the "whole" problem, but don't fool yourself, there are a lot more cooling system related failures with dexcool equipped vehicles then the older ones with green.

Green coolant has been aluminum compatible for "years". Dexcool was designed for long life, so that GM could boast that their cars need no maintenance....heh, heh.....I guess they don't need any coolant flushes before 160,000 kilometers, we just change the intake gaskets as "maintenance" at 60,000 kilometers.

Ian

Its hard to say if they changed the ingredients used to form those=20 plastic gaskets. Thats one factor we may not know. Dex could be the=20 cause but I find it hard to believe. IMO green coolant would become=20 acidic much faster to attack those gaskets. I do recall those gaskets=20 failing then as well. Maybe the silica crusty crap would plug things up=20 better.

Conventional coolant doesnt have organic material to fall out of=20 suspension when heated in a air chamber. Thats my guess as to what=20 happens to dexcool.=20

Well either they changed the make up of the plastic or silica plugged=20 things off. Who knows. They could of switched suppliers for the gaskets=20 for all we know. Maybe snip a piece of pre dexcool gasket off and post=20 dexcool gasket materal off and send it to a lab.=20

Heres that compatiable green coolant bonding to a aluminum water neck of=20 what once was a dexcool system.

silica crust, yum yum. The aluminum in my well maintained bonnie was bright and shiny like it=20 was just polished. No lumpy crap or muddy sludge stuck anywhere and=20 looked like a fresh cast surface. This is why I will never mix or switch=20 to something other than dexcool.

I think it would be interesting to run some experiments with the=20 coolants. Make up a bunch of simulated cooling systems with different=20 materals thrown in and run some low on coolant and some full at 210deg=20 and see what happens. That would eliminate any possible contamination of=20 the test. If I had a bunch of hot plates and someone else paying the=20 electric bill I'd might do something like that. :)

"Bon·ne·ville" wrote

As far as I can tell, there was no difference in materials between the gaskets that were used in non-dexcool applications and the dexcool applications. There is no doubt that when it comes to the intake gasket design, there is a problem with the intake gaskets. But there are other cooling system problems that have occured with the introduction of dexcool. One area that stands out to me is the rash of block heaters leaking since the vehicles where changed over to dexcool.

Dexcool also appears to turn to mud in the presence of air and cast iron block/heads. Green coolant never did this....any idea why not? Sure, we all want to keep our cooling systems topped up and free of air, but in the real world, leaks happen, cooling systems run low and air is inevitably introduced. So now what we say is, "the coolant is long life and you don't have to change it very often, but if you ever develop a coolant leak, look out....it reacts with the air and cast iron and will trash your cooling sytem"?

Exactly...and should it?

What, do you own some stock in Texaco?

I'll match your picture:

and raise you one:

Ian

Like you should know, one is organic, one is silicon based. Expose=20 dexcool to air with tremendous heat and the organic material appears to=20 separate from liquid. Another thought would be dex might see air as a=20 contaminant which would make the inhibitors wear out faster.=20

(iron? less iron in engines every year) In the real world people dont know anything about cooling systems.=20 Keeping it topped off is something a vast majority doesnt understand.=20 You of all people should know that the majority see's their cars as=20 nothing more than an appliance and treat it the same as they would a=20 refrigerator. They assume long life means, hey I dont need to pop that=20 hood for 5 years. I seem to recall in drivers ed they talked about=20 checking your car I thought. Checking tire pressure and such. In the end=20 whos responsible for the car? If a person runs their brakes into the ground, where there is no brake=20 pad, and the vents of the rotor are starting to show, is GM responsible=20 for that drivers neglect? A loss of coolant should be GM's=20 responsibility. A destroyed engine do to over heating or running=20 prolonged with barely any coolant should not. You should understand that=20 Ian. GM neglects a design, GM's responsible. Driver neglects upkeep, the=20 drivers responsible.

No but should there be air in the system? If there is air in the system=20 that gunk should be the least of the owners worries. At least it scares=20 them enough to go into a shop and hopefully someone knowledgeable will=20 alert them to a leak. Gunk worries me less than a seized engine. If they=20 only seen it was low they would just fill it and you would never know=20 that it was going into the crank case. "Sealed system? Whats that?"

No, do you own stock in a silicon processing business? Come on...

I've seen those. Again obviously a neglected system. At least flushing=20 should remove that. Boy I wish I had taken pictures of all the aluminum=20 heater cores that were ate up from conventional coolant and all the=20 pitted machined aluminum sealing surfaces I've seen. None of which I've=20 seen happen with dexcool.

In the end Ian both coolants suck ass when no one upkeeps them. There=20 are no perfect coolants. There are perfect cars. There are no perfect=20 engineers or scientist. In the end the only real cure for issues like=20 these might be for everyone to stop treating their cars like=20 refrigerators and pop the hood once in awhile. I do that with mine even=20 when theres a foot of snow on the hood. I think it should be required by=20 law that in order to get your drivers licence you must pass a basic=20 automotive course. I've kept my coolant from going south because I=20 stopped the leaks and always kept it topped off. No more coolant loss=20 occurs and the coolant has always looked so clean you would think it was=20 gatorade. Just dont drink it.

1. stop driving the car. 2. change the oil and filter. 3. drain the coolant out of the radiator. 4. get two cans of KW block seal, 5. run the engine with the block seal at a fast idle for an hour. drive the car around town but keep the radiator cap off of the radiator. gravity will hold the coolant in stupid. 6. repeat above steps each week-end till it goes away.

"Bon·ne·ville" wrote

This is what I'm trying to get at. Dexcool has some inherent problems that occur if you run the cooling system low. As you mention further down, we all know that "most" people don't go over their vehicle with a fine tooth comb, they simply drive the thing. Where GM has failed (in my mind) is in their attempt to promote their vehicles as being "maintenance free", when in fact, dexcool equipped cars need to be monitored even more then the older vehicles with green coolant. If a person followed the old coolant change schedule of 2 years,

40,000 klms....there is less chance of running the cooling system low, problems are seen and addressed in a timely manner, and overall, I think you would see less problems. Even older cooling systems would turn to mud eventually, but that was an obvious lack of maintenance, when you know that the coolant should be changed every two years, and you let it go to 10 years, any problems that occur don't seem to be out of the ordinary.

Yeah, there is, except the 3800 engine. It still has the same old cast iron heads and block that it always has had. Same thing with the 4.3 engine, and a large percentage of the new generation small block engines have cast iron blocks and some of them also have cast iron heads. The all aluminum engines don't seem to have the mud issue, but they do have the crusting/leaking dexcool issues just like other engines.

Exactly my point....and who is telling them this? Who is trying to educate their customers that the vehicle is nothing more then a 3 year throw away car that will need no maintenance. GM is (as we type) attempting to work on cars that will need no oil changes for three years. This will be great for the customers that lease cars and then "throw them away", but after that period, there will be all sorts of problems.

Right, I agree with you, weren't we talking about intake gaskets failing prematurely? So now you have a manufacturer that screws up the intake design on vehicles with coolant that is susceptible to low coolant levels. I'd say that the onus rests more on GM for this one then the customer. Especially when the General is busy trying to convince everyone that "no" maintenance is required on their vehicles. Even the location of their low level sensor is suspect in the vans, you can run the system with air for quite a while before you see the low level light come on.

Actually, it wasn't a "neglected" system, these are cooling systems in the Jimmy/Blazer lines that had problems with dexcool even at low mileage. Again, air in the system, no level warning on these vehicles, you could run with small amounts of air in the system for quite a while without being aware of it. The level in the overflow could indicate that your coolant was up, while the level in the rad was low, due to rad caps getting gummed up. It all smacks of poor design, and not enough real world testing of the "wonder" coolant.

Anyway, we can debate this for quite a while, probably without coming to any real hard conclusions. I will say this, from the money grubbing, greedy side of my persona.....I like GM and their dexcool. It ensures that I will have lots of work for many years to come. Right now, the large majority of the work that we do in our shop are cooling system related failures.....oh yeah, those lovely front diffs that American Axle puts out....they keep us very busy too.

Ian

Tell me where does GM say "maintenance free" Is it one the overflow bottle? The hood? I cant find it... Yeah they dont go over their cars. So when they get in a wreck because they have no brake pads lets blaim GM. Thats what you are saying. I dont recall any GM car with the hood welded shut.

So if a person cant check all their fluids when they pop the hood GM should still get the blaim? If they lost a little bit of coolant at 40k klms and think nothing of it because they get their coolant changed what happens before the next 40k klms when they have no coolant because the gasket ruptured? So much for fixing it at a timely manner. So much for that early change interval... How soon something is changed has nothing to do with how well its monitored.

Not sure what you are talking about there or what your point was.

Yup. My coolant sure looked muddy when I... wait mine never looked muddy. 4.3's like every vortec have crappy gaskets and always develope leaks. Any 4.3 that has muddy dexcool was run low because of a leak at the intake and neglect to check the radiator. Trying to blaim dexcool alone for that is being ignorant. Virtually every Cadillac has stop leak put in it so how can anyone point to dexcool alone if it gums up. You should know that air makes that stop leak crap harden and stick to everything. I recall a lot of green coolant seepage from porous aluminum castings on the northstars. I guess I should blaim conventional coolant for that though.

Again where does GM say "DONT LOOK UNDER THE HOOD? Dont ever check your fluids!" Where is GM saying throw your car out after 3 years? Maybe thats what your company practices does so it can stay in business. I dont see nothing in the owners manual saying after 3 years 30k miles you need to pitch your car.

Again where do they say that???!!! The coolant says long life, not go long without checking me! Long life does not = long intervals of neglecting to check the systems. Why is it you think people shouldn't have to check their own cars periodically?

After having a Honda not turn on its oil light with .3 quarts of oil in the system you learn real fast not to rely on any sensor. Pull the damn dipstick, pull the damn radiotor cap, learn something, teach your customers some basic checks and make sure they understand that with owning a car comes responsibilities!

Yeah I could buy a new car and not pop the damn hood too.

Yeah sorry GM cant idiot proof cars to your standards. Idiots will still win out no matter what GM, Honda, Dodge, or anyone else does. Dont expect perfecion in this world by anyone. Murphy's law will always win out.

Yeah not informing customers of some basic car care will insure business as well. I'd rather flush dexcool gunk out or have it flushed out any day over replacing a ate up heater core or radiator. At least that gunk comes out much better than scaling left over from conventional coolant. Btw Ian, you ever think that if you got out of the shop where all the problem cars go and actually looked at cars that have been well serviced you would be hard to find problems with dexcool. My family uses dexcool and "if" we get a used vehicle with mud its had or has a leak issue. We fix the leak and continue to use dexcool and experience nooo issues with dexcool what so ever from there on out. I'm not sure about my 92 bonneville being dexcool from the start but it had dexcool in it when I got it. It was 6 or 7 years old at the time and it was clean looking. Not knowing how long its been in I drained it and refilled it. Its probably well do for another change but it has never leaked or turned brown. Explain that. Must be magic huh? Because according to you it should be brown and clogged up. When it comes down to it, dexcool sludge is a symptom of a problem, not the problem. Fix the leak and educate the customer or you will always see problems when ignorance is the overriding factor. It doesnt help telling them dexcool is bad without a reason only to have them come back with a failed heater core or a burned up engine because they thought switching to conventional coolant would be the cure all fix.

I'm going to jump in here. Our Blazer with Dex-Cool gelled up at 20k miles and maybe even before that. We took delivery at ~19k miles and they just did a flush of the coolant and they certified that it didn't have any problems with any system within the Blazer. I don't really think that the gasket went bad that fast either. We bled the system every time we opened it up, yet it still gelled. The radiator looked fine everytime we took the cap off too, but guess what, the clog was where we couldn't see it. After the warranty expired we called up GM and they called our dealership and had them flush the system. It worked fine for about 2 weeks and clogged again. We called GM back up and they sent us back there and we got regular green antifreeze in place of Dex-Cool. But then when we had it with regular green the clogging went away. On another Blazer that we had we didn't experience these problems (I believe it was a 92). Hmm...guess we're ignorant.

If you look at

page 7-4 it says at 100,000 miles to perform cooling service. And alsoreading it, the page says to inspect certain things. If they don't say toinspect the cooling system then it's taken for granted that it is not to beinspected.

That's part of the thing, you buy a new car NOT to pop the hood. You assume that there won't be any problems since it's new.

That fixed worked for us. Hell, the GM rep we spoke to on the phone was complaining about all the problems they've been having with Dex-Cool. If you want I can provide the name and number. BTW, our heat didn't work and we got the system flushed and filled with regular green. Guess what we have now? Yep, heat.

"Bon·ne·ville" wrote

Hey, before we go any further, I need to know something. I probably haven't been listening/paying attention, but what do you do for a living? Do you work as a GM technician in a dealer, or do you work in a dealership in any capacity...ie: service management, salesman...etc. This is important to know so that I don't waste my time arguing with someone who is just "well read".

As to the above question.....you know quite well that when I talk about "maintenance free", this is the concept that GM has been moving towards and are moving towards. No, they don't specifically say "your vehicle needs no maintenance", but this is what they are attempting to do.

Were you at the last tech meeting we had with the GM District Service Manager? If so, you werent listening, as he specifically said that as of "now" regularly scheduled oil changes are a thing of the past, and the dealership network is basically being forced to tell the customer that they only need to bring the vehicle in when the oil change light comes on. So now, instead of the dealership being able to check things over every

3 months/5000 kilometers, it could be double or triple that time period/kilometers driven.

Here's a homework assignment for you. Go find someone who has a late model Cavalier/Sunfire and without lifting the vehicle up.....check his transmission fluid level for him (auto trans)....you know....those owner checks that everyone should be doing. What....no dipstick....looks like GM has "welded the hood" shut on automatics. They are doing it to many automatics, and believe me, the intent is to do it to pretty much everything on the vehicle.

Very true, but even GM in their owners manual tells the owners that "if you have to top up the coolant 4 times in one year" take it in to the dealership. What does that tell you? That cooling systems could easily be run low within that time period. Now throw in dexcool which reacts negatively with air in the cooling system (I sound like a broken record) and you have problems that really originate with GM's designs and maintenance schedule advice.

You know this for a fact? Hence my original question, are you a tech, and do you work on 4.3's every day? We've run into plenty of these

4.3's with the dexcool problem and it's often not because of an intake leak, it's a poorly designed rad cap that lets air into the system. Again, with older green coolant, even with air in the system, you didn't get these problems.

Totally different problem.....but nice attempt at re-directing the discussion. The very late model Northstars no longer have the sealant added in with the dexcool, but they still have the dexcrap oozing out of the few gaskets and hoses that there are. It won't matter what coolant you use...it's all going to come out of a "porous aluminum casting". Which is why they used the sealant with both the green coolant and the early dexcool equipped engines. Why they have stopped using it now, I'm not quite sure, but I would assume that they believe they won't have the "porous" problem any longer.

Nice try, but you are missing the point, either out of ignorance, or simply on purpose to push your point of view. It's more of a subliminal message, but it's there just the same. Your comments about what "my" company does are just ignorant. We thrive on "maintaining" vehicles, we are not thrilled at all that GM is moving toward lowering the maintenance schedules on their vehicles. We see and have to repair all the vehicles that are damaged because of "no maintenance", but failures that would have been denied years ago because of "customer abuse" are now "good willed" because we recognize that GM has led the customer down the garden path with this extended maintenance stuff, and it leads to all sorts of problems. But in many cases, even if the customer is to blame, there is enough "reasonable doubt" that a lot of stuff gets repaired long after the warranty period is out. We warranty the dexcool mess in the Jimmy/Blazer because it's very obvious that a customer can inadvertantly run the system low and why should they be penalized because GM is now running a coolant that does crazy things with air and cast iron? It never happened on the older models with the same intake gaskets, but different coolant.

Orange, pink...It's not green anyway. I'm not saying it was the cause of the pump failure.. That was simply a defective part to begin with. Thanks for all th input you add to this and other threads.

D