GrandAm 1993 Battery Drain

Suddenly battery appeared flat at morning. It was one year old, one year warranty WalMart unit, so I went there and bought a new one, anyway that is one year deal.

Worked nicely for a week, then suddently battery flat down at morning. Jumper Start and went back to WalMart to check everything. Mechanic there used a portable analyser unit, said battery was ok, alternator was not

100%.

Took alternator to a repair shop, they tested said alternator was not bad, but it was 8 years old, so I asked them to replace regulator, brushes, diodes, etc. They replaced everything inside, including bearings. Alternator now is supplying 145+ Amps, ok.

One week later battery flat down at morning. Car needed to fix water pump that was damaging serpentine belt, took to the mechanic and asked him to check for this once a week battery flat drain. That mechanic is not specialized in electric, but he said somethign connected to ALARM fuse is draining more current than expected.

Once at home I went after that. Found that ALARM fuse feeds energy to interior lights, chime, radio and "passive restraint", what a heck it could be I don't know.

I found out that the door locks energize some magnet while the doors are open, keep energized for 30 seconds after door are closed, after that the power consume at the ALARM fuse is minimum.

In middle of this battery problem I replace the radio with a JVC CD player, so I found the ins-and-outs of the panel for cables. Removing the JVC current on ALARM fuse reduced from 20mA (0.02A) to almost nothing. But 20mA I guess is not that bad for a CD player to keep clock and holding memory setup. A battery would take a month to discharge with only 20mA of drain.

Yesterday battery was really bad, middle charge, around 7V. I installed a lamp in between the battery negative pole and the negative cable, measured the voltage drop around the battery. Lamp is 6 Ohms of resistance, it developped pulsed from 1.5 to 2.2V over the lamp after 2 minutes of door closed. Found out that the CD player was flashing the pannel on and off. I guess it was complaining about the low voltage from battery, right now all those players are fully microprocessed and they can sense it and report in some way. Removing the CD player connector current went down to less than 5mA from the battery. Those 2.2V over 6 ohms, is around 300mA (0.3A) current consume, but even so it would take many hours to drain a fully charged battery to a state of only 7V. It was not the case, it happened during the night. Even so, those 300mA was the "error report" from the CD Player, and not the regular 20mA consumed while ignition key is off.

Found at the JVC CD Player documentation, an yellow wire that is contantly connected to +12V for keeping power to the device even with ignition key off. Removing this wire from the connector reduced battery consume to only 5mA, that is probably the consume from the Engine COmputer.

After battery was fully recharged with a power transformer, that CD player flashing state was not anymore. Power consumed by the radio was half amp playing or only 20mA after turning ignition switch off.

Using the lamp between the negative pole of the battery and the negative cable, measuring the voltage drop over the lamp, I was not able to identify ANY excessive current that could be sucking battery juice during the night. All I have is that 20mA from the CD Player. I was expecting to find some bigger drain current from the battery, then removing fused one by one until locating source of short circuit or something like that. Nothing was found.

Returned to WalMart to complain about a possible intermitent bad battery. They again tested battery and alternator, battery still ok, but now alternator was also ok. They told me that some short circuit in the car is draining battery during a parking state.

Something is happening, not always, some nights. Parked for around to 6 hours is not a bad deal, but if I keep the car parked for more than 18 hours it is better to start to worry about a jump start.

I went to Discount-Auto-Parts and Auto-Zone stores and tried to find a decent manual for this 1993 GrandAm, mostly looking for the electric diagram, but they don't have anything that worths the price. Nothing that says "THIS IS THE DIAGRAM FOR A 1993 GRANDAM 6 Cylinders"... just some generic Pontiac, and didn't find any that had at least the ALARM FUSE on the diagrams.

I really need some help, since it seems that nobody is able or interested in solve the problem. WalMart is always saying battery is good. Alternator is charging ok, but some is sucking battery and bad.

This morning battery has absolutelly nothing, the internal lights were not even dark dim, they are totaly off. It required an external charge of 8A for about 2 hours to allowme to turn on engine (I don't like to use jumper cables when battery is that much flat - can damage other alternator, or even this alternator by excess of charging current).

I suspect something goes bad after car cools down, will try to skick and check current drain in middle of night, but it is getting ridiculous.

I am pretty lost, any help will be much more than welcome.

Wagner.

Reply to
Wagner
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Anything significantly over a 50mA draw is too much. Look for whatever is drawing more than that with the car off. Be sure to check trunk lamp, glove box lamp, other interior lamps. 300mA is quite enough to drain a battery overnight.

Reply to
hyundaitech

Have you taken off a battery cable overnight? That would narrow things down, especially if it still goes dead. I have a 92 with the 3.3. I always buy Wal-Mart batteries. They always last 13 months. I'm surprised your alternator lasted 8 yrs. Mine rarely go beyond

2 years. The 9 months of summer, alternator in the engine "V" jammed up against the hood pad, and hours every day at 10 mph on the Katy Freeway is hard on charging systems.
Reply to
=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=

The usual troubleshooting first step here is to put an inductive current probe on a battery cable and to start pulling fuses. Which ever fuse causes the big drop in drain is the circuit to look at. GW

Reply to
Geoff Welsh

I have a 93 with 2.0 and buy my batteries from Sears (been buying diehards my whole life). They last upwards of 9 years here in TX for me. Alternators don't seem to last as long I just put in my second replacement, this time I am keeping up with the lifetime warrenty paperwork.

Depending on the electronics in your car, you can have substantial drain with the key off. I have several ham radios in mine that draw current all the time to keep their memories stored. I don't have a problem with drain unless I leave the car sitting for more than a week.

Reply to
john graesser

Yes. I've noticed that with the 2+ engines as well. The vital parts pro= bably have better air flow. Removing the hood pad from mine has helped a great=

deal.

Reply to
=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=

Again made the test with disconnecting battery negative cable and inserting a 6 Ohms lamp (25W) in series, measuring voltage drop over the lamp I could calculate the current.

During the day, car parket but warm-hot (Florida that is) the only fuse that feed any current to anything is the ALARM fuse, it feeds radio, interior lamps, passive restraint (who knows what it is?) and chime. After closing doors (lamps off in a minute), ignition key off, the current from battery is really only 20mA. Removing this ALARM fuse, current is almost zero.

Well, deal done. Remove ALARM fuse after parking at night, several nights without fuse. Then, for two consecutive days, battery was flat at morning... It is nothing to do with the hardware connected to ALARM fuse, totally inocent hardware.

Last night started to remove also the CTSY fuse, it feeds Power Door Locks, Power Mirrors (I don't have it), Cigar Lighter. Lets see this morning, if ok, will keep removing CTSY for few more days until the problem disappear or return.

Writing "Cigar Lighter" above, remembered me that the first time I got the flat battery, it had a cell phone car charger connected to the cigar lighter. I remember because I thought it was that contraption who caused the battery to goes flat. May be I should disassemble that socket and check wiring or something. I don't smoke so the socket is kept empty for the cell charging. Of course that the charger was never left connected anymore since this problem started, except while the vehicle is running.

Resuming, ALARM fuse and its hardware not suspect anymore. Lets check CTSY and hardware now.

I am also suspecting something related to other things; as start motor and radiator fan motor. What about if the temperature sensor goes crazy at night when external temperature cools down, and turn radiator fan motor after the car is parked for hours? I will attach a sewing fine line to the fan blades, so if it turns by itself during the night will break the thread, so I will now.

How can I check the start motor? Need disassembly? Remember that it is not a constant short circuit, it happens during the night.

Wagner.

Reply to
Wagner

CTSY is not gulty also. Went there to check, battery is 11.42V without any consume, since CTSY and ALARM fuses are out (interior lights, radio, power door locks, etc, all off). Tried to run engine, absolutely no power. Battery goes down to 2.2V with ignition key turned. Of course no movement at all at engine, no start motor click, nothing. Connected ALARM fuse to turn on interior lights, battery went down to 4V... this is starting to be ridiculous.

There is no way to test the battery for internal intermitent shorts, right?

How can one could differentiate a bad battery with intermitent internal short, from an external short, just by disconnecting the battery cables and waiting for no charge at morning, right?

Now, suppose I do it and state that battery is losing charge with cables disconnected. How can I convince WalMart people that the battery is bad, when I went there twice and they tested and said battery is good?

Reply to
Wagner

Is the alternator charging? Also what shape is belt in? I once had a bad belt that would kill my battery because it wouldn't charge.

Reply to
Tj

When you leave the battery cable off at night does it still go dead? Wal-Marts are everywhere. Take it to another one.

Reply to
=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=

The Wal-Mart nearest me never checks my batteries. They just give me new ones (pro-rated).

Reply to
=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=

You need to load test the battery. That's tough if you don't trust people to do it, but a legit load test (carbon pile loading) will say for sure if the battery is toast, and it sounds like it is.

By load testing the battery. GW

Reply to
Geoff Welsh

Sounds like your battery has a dead cell, which creates high internal resistance when drawing power. It should be around 13.5-15 no load, and no way should it drop to 2.2 under load. Replace the battery and buy a premium one like a diehard, then see if your problems go away.

Reply to
john graesser

Yes, alternator was rebuilt two weeks ago, since WalMart test said alternator was not in the top shape. Rebuilt with new regulator, brushes, bearings, diodes. Serpentine Belt was replaced along with water pump, two weeks ago, since the old belt gave up after so much effort in the battery recharge and recharge, and also by the bad water pump, dancing the pulley all over the place and damaging the belt against a bolt head.

Reply to
Wagner

You're lucky. Yesterday I went back to WalMart for a final attempt to replace the battery, at least to see if the problem goes away replacing it. I am sick of their way to verify if the battery is good or not. Also sick to recharge the battery every morning before going to work. I decided to buy another battery, 3 yrs warranty Max 75S, $59, lets see what happens. If it fixes the problem I will try to return the "failing" battery as bad.

Reply to
Wagner

There are battery testers made that can tell you if the battery is bad even when it is almost dead. Made by Midtronics and a few others. I have never seen a Midtronics tester pass a bad battery or condemn a good one.

Reply to
nospam.clare.nce

Bought a 95 cents acid density (gravity test) at WalMart. The glass bulb has 4 bolored balls, each has a different density and they float or not according to the liquid density under test. H2SO4 (battery acid) at a fully charged battery will made the 4 balls float. Pure tap watter will let 4 balls to fall down.

This battery in question has a very weak acid, since the 4 balls didn't float at all. Almost had a fight with those "experts" at WalMart, they use a portable battery tester that apply a little load to the battery and measure voltage drop/raise to state if the battery is ok or not. That is not a real test. If 95% of the battery plates are sulfated (covered with sulfate crystals) they will not interact with the electrolit, will not exchange chemicals and will not work. A 95% covered plates battery will act the same as if the plates are only 5% of the original size. So, testing will not so strong current drain (portable tests), it doesn't matter if you are testing a 75A or 10A battery, the tester will result as ok, because the 5% of the plates will react ok to the tester. But two or three consecutive starts will suck battery down. I asked them (high qualified specialists at WalMart) to do a simple acid gravity test, to see that the battery will charge a bit, but not as a new one. They simply ignore the request from a stupid ignorant customer as me.

The thing is that no matter how many hours I keep the battery under charging (external charger), voltage goes up to 13.2V after 30 minutes resting after charge, but acid gravity still very bad. An overnight consume of only 20mA (ECM memory) drains that weak charge.

I finally replace the battery with a new one, and managed to use the warranty to not pay for it. I guess the store manager just "gave me" the new battery so I would stop complain, but not because the old battery was bad.

One lesson to learn, WalMart is not a place to purchase batteries. Buy them where people understand a little what they are doing, the limitation of their tools, and the alternate tests for difficult problems.

Reply to
Wagner

Reply to
Geoff Welsh

I have always had just the opposite Wal_Mart experience. Every 13-18 months I carry in the old 60 month battery (that's all the longer they last), and they give me a new, pro-rated battery - No questions asked. I've been to many different Wal-Marts for that, all in Texas though.

Reply to
« Paul »

So every 13-18 months you take in a walmart battery, and every 8-9 years I have to buy a new diehard at Sears, also in Texas. Sounds like you spend a lot more time replacing batteries than I do.

Reply to
john graesser

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