Plain Brown Wrapper in Hot Rod Mag

If anyone wants to see the article I can email a jpg - not sure if it's kosher to post it here.

Reply to
Pat Drnec
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"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country."

- President Theodore Roosevelt, 1908

I guess we are on opposite sides of this issue... it appears to some of us that those who oppose "Bush's War" have nothing of reasonable substance to offer as an alternative, and seem not to even think to consider the ramifications of quitting in Iraq, nor of contemplating the potential good that could come to the middle east from a success there. Nor will they even consider that Bush may have made a rational decision based on information he had at the time, the same information that all the democrat leaders before him also had, and that they cited in their speeches of the time, calling Saddam the most serious threat to our security, a loose cannon who encouraged terrorists in Israel and had designs on building atom bombs to avenge the first Gulf War.

There seem to be many who call themselves "patriots" for opposing the Iraq war, but a substantial share of them seem more like "hateriots" to me, opposing ANY position Bush takes on ANY issue (for political reasons), but offering no rational alternatives that would make us any safer or give us any hope for a peaceful, terror-free future.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained... I'd rather have a President that's trying, than one who wrings his hands and renders himself ineffective while trying not to offend anyone anywhere, or one who simply launches a few cruise missiles at a an aspirin factory and an empty training camp, then moves on to more compelling monkey business with a 19-year-old intern in the Oval Office.

The radical Islamists already want to kill us, they've proved that on many occasions (many prior to 9/11), and they'll keep recruiting and keep coming after us whether we go after them or not... we're simply jockeying for position, eg, will we play offense or defense, in what will be a prolonged struggle. One of the same guys who orchestrated the taking of hostages from our embassy in Iran back during the Carter administration now runs that country, builds nukes, openly makes threats about wiping Israel off the map, and routinely threatens the US and the Europeans... he is obviously in it for the long haul. It scares me that many of us seem not to even WANT to defend ourselves or acknowledge that if & when we leave Iraq without finishing the job there, the terrorists will be even more emboldened to come here to kill more of us. Instead they somehow think we can put on blinders, turn the calendar pages back, and everything will be hunky-dory. The fight may end if one side stops fighting, but only because it hands victory to the guy who keeps slugging, and that guy gets to dictate the fate of the guy who quit.

I'd like us to have a strong presence, long term, in that middle east neighborhood, and I applaud Bush's attempts to get some form of democracy seeded into an area that currently has only one real democracy (Israel).

Reply to
WayneC

I fail to see what this post has to do with the title subject.

Bob40

Reply to
Bob

It has to do with Pat Drnec's 'signature' tag line that appears on all his post's.

"Bob" wrote...

Reply to
Jeff Rice

It's OT and not following the thread. It's also political It's also well written and I agree with most of it.

Like it or not - we have to be the ones that stand up to the bullies, 'cause nobody else can.

If we allow the bullies to prosper, then we get screwed later.

Wwayne wrote this: I'd like us to have a strong presence, long term, in that middle east neighborhood, and I applaud Bush's attempts to get some form of democracy seeded into an area that currently has only one real democracy (Israel).

It is not a idea I LIKE, but it is a necessity.

Leaving a power vacuum is a very bad idea. Kicking spome serious ass seems to work, sometimes.

Doing the job "on the cheap" was not a real great idea.

But it beats not doing the job.

Mark (I know I should not send this) Dunning

Reply to
markshere2

Then maybe it's time for a new one.

Jeff Rice wrote:

Reply to
Pat Drnec

If you want to know what my intention is in using that quote, I suggest you ask me via email - I'll be happy to discuss it with you and we can avoid the usual pissing contest.

WayneC wrote:

Reply to
Pat Drnec

I like that one!

"Pat Drnec" wrote...

definition of the word "politics." "Poli means many, and tics means blood suckers."

Reply to
Jeff Rice

Who's getting my vote!

JT

Jeff Rice wrote:

Reply to
Grumpy AuContraire

How many ways can you have it wrong. The Democrats and the rest of us did not have the same information that the administration had! It has been proven without a doubt that they cherry picked the information they wanted to believe and that they showed to the rest of us. Here is a timeline of the run up to the war and the many ways we were misled. Read it and weep-

8/14/92 Defense Secretary Dick Cheney declares President Bush Sr. wise not to invade Baghdad and "get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq." 4/15/93 Saddam Hussein reportedly tries to assassinate Bush Sr.

1/26/98 Project for a New American Century (pnac) - founded by Cheney, Scooter Libby, Donald Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Paul Wolfowitz and other top neocons - demands President Clinton undertake the "removal of Saddam Hussein's regime."

6/23/98 "The good Lord didn't see fit to put oil and gas only where there are democratically elected regimes friendly to the United States." -Halliburton ceo Cheney

8/7/98 Al Qaeda bombs U.S. embassies in Africa, killing 220 and injuring some 4,000.

10/31/98 Clinton signs the Iraq Liberation Act. Regime change becomes official U.S. policy.

Late 1998 Gen. Anthony Zinni, head of U.S. Central Command, examines Iraqi exile Ahmed Chalabi's military plan to overthrow Saddam with 1,000 men. He warns Congress it is "pie in the sky, a fairy tale."

NOVEMBER 1999 Chalabi-connected Iraqi defector "Curveball" - a convicted sex offender and low-level engineer who became the sole source for much of the case that Saddam had wmd, particularly mobile weapons labs - enters Munich seeking a German visa. German intelligence officers describe his information as highly suspect. U.S. agents never debrief Curveball or perform background check. Nonetheless, Defense Intelligence Agency (dia) and cia will pass raw intelligence on to senior policymakers.

10/3/00 Debating Al Gore, George W. Bush says he'd commit troops only with an "exit strategy," and he'd be "very careful about using our troops as nation builders."

10/12/00 Al Qaeda attacks USS Cole in Aden, Yemen, killing 17 and injuring

11/6/00 Congress doubles funding for Iraqi opposition groups to more than $25 million, $18 million earmarked for Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress, which then pays defectors for anti-Iraq tales.

1/30/01 Saddam's removal is top item of Bush's inaugural national security meeting. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill later recalls, "It was all about finding a way to do it. The president saying, 'Go find me a way to do this. "

2/14/01 Dick Cheney's energy task force begins secret meetings with oil company executives.

2/24/01 Saddam "has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction." - Secretary of State Colin Powell

2/26/01 Future Iraq Ambassador L. Paul Bremer III says: "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism."

3/5/01 Pentagon produces document titled "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts" for Cheney's task force. Includes a map of areas for potential exploration.

4/10/01 Lone cia analyst known only as "Joe" tells top Bush brass that aluminum tubes bought by Iraq can only be for nuclear centrifuges.

8/6/01 On vacation in Crawford, Bush receives a Presidential Daily Briefing warning, "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S." fbi highlights Al Qaeda activities consistent with hijacking preparations, as well as surveillance of federal buildings.

8/17/01 Memo to cia from Energy Department experts eviscerates "Joe's" theory that aluminum tubes purchased by Iraq are for nuclear centrifuges. Memo given to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, who later claims tubes are clear evidence of Iraqi nuke program.

SEPTEMBER 2001 Curveball granted German asylum, ceases cooperating. British spy agency MI6 has told cia that "elements of [his] behavior strike us as typical of ... fabricators."

9/10/01 nsa intercepts messages that say, "The match is about to begin" and "Tomorrow is zero hour." Not translated until Sept. 12.

9/11/01 Al Qaeda attacks. Minutes taken by a Rumsfeld aide five hours later: "Best info fast. Judge whether good enough [to] hit SH [Saddam Hussein] @ same time. Not only UBL [Usama bin Laden]."

9/12/01 According to counter-terror czar Richard Clarke, "[Bush] told us, 'I want you, as soon as you can, to go back over everything, everything. See if Saddam did this.' " Told evidence against al Qaeda overwhelming, Bush asks for "any shred" Saddam was involved.

9/19/01 Pentagon's Defense Policy Board, chaired by Richard Perle and featuring Henry Kissinger and Newt Gingrich, declares that Iraq should be invaded after Afghanistan.

9/21/01 Justice Department lawyer John Yoo declares Fourth Amendment flexible, writing: "[T]he government may be justified in taking measures which in less troubled conditions could be seen as infringements of individual liberties."

9/25/01 Yoo forges doctrine of preemption, writing that Bush may use his war powers to act against groups or individuals, even if it would be "difficult to establish [that they] have been or may be implicated in attacks."

10/7/01 Afghanistan invaded.

10/8/01 Office of Homeland Security established.

10/25/01 Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (usa Patriot) Act passes 98-1 in the Senate.

11/11/01 Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, top al Qaeda paramilitary trainer, captured in Pakistan.

11/26/01 Bush declares, "Saddam is evil."

Late NOVEMBER 2001 Osama bin Laden, pinned down at Tora Bora, slips away.

12/9/01 Cheney on Meet the Press: "Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that the Iraqis have indeed harbored terrorists." Also claims 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta met with Iraqi spy in Prague, a claim he'll repeat long after cia and Czechs disavow.

Early 2002 Bush approves "The Program," which permits nsa to surveil U.S. citizens without a warrant, court approval or sign-off from the Justice Department.

JANUARY 2002 fbi, which favors standard law enforcement interrogation practices, loses debate with cia Director George Tenet, and al-Libi is transferred to cia custody. Al-Libi is then rendered to Egypt. "They duct-taped his mouth, cinched him up and sent him to Cairo," an fbi agent told reporters. "At the airport the cia case officer goes up to him and says, 'You're going to Cairo, you know. Before you get there, I am going to find your mother and I'm going to f*ck her.' " Under torture, al-Libi invents tale of al Qaeda operatives receiving chemical weapons training from Iraq. "This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear," a cia source later tells abc.

1/9/02 Yoo memo to Pentagon brass declares that the laws of war, including the Geneva Conventions, do not apply to the conflict in Afghanistan.

1/25/02 White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales echoes Yoo: "In my judgment, this new paradigm renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions."

1/29/02 Bush delivers "Axis of Evil" State of the Union. Speechwriter David Frum later says phrase was the fruit of being asked: "Can you sum up in a sentence or two our best case for going after Iraq?"

FEBRUARY 2002 dia intelligence summary notes that al-Libi's "confession" lacks details and suggests that he is most likely telling interrogators what he thinks will "retain their interest." Also states: "Saddam's regime is intensely secular and is wary of Islamic revolutionary movements. Moreover, Baghdad is unlikely to provide assistance to a group it cannot control."

2/13/02 Total Information Awareness program leaked.

2/26/02 Former Ambassador Joseph Wilson sent to Niger to check out claims Iraq buying uranium-rich yellowcake.

March 2002 "Fuck Saddam. We're taking him out." -Bush to Rice and three senators.

3/5/02 Joe Wilson tells cia there's no indication that Iraq is buying yellowcake.

3/8/02 First of Downing Street memos prepared by Tony Blair's top national security aides. "There is no greater threat now than in recent years that Saddam will use wmd. . Washington believes the legal basis for an attack on Iraq already exists. ... Regime change has no basis in international law."

3/13/02 Bush on Osama: "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."

3/24/02 Saddam "is actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time." -Cheney on cnn

3/28/02 Pakistani forces capture al Qaeda "operations chief" Abu Zubaydah and cia ferrets him away to underground interrogation facility in Thailand. Bush told he's mentally unstable and really only al Qaeda's travel agent.

4/9/02 Bush calls Zubaydah one of "top operating officials of al Qaeda, plotting . murder." Later asks Tenet, "I said he was important, you're not going to let me lose face on this are you? ... Do some of those harsh methods really work?" Zubaydah is then tortured and speaks of all variety of plots.

MAY 2002 Primary corroborator of Curveball's claims that Iraq has mobile weapons labs is judged a liar and Chalabi plant by dia. A fabricator warning is posted in U.S. intelligence databases.

June 2002 To a deputy raising doubts about Iraq war, Rice says: "Save your breath. The president has already made up his mind."

July 2002 Gen. Franks secretly requests $700 million for war preparations. Bush approves, unbeknownst to Congress. Money taken from appropriation for the war in Afghanistan.

7/23/02 Downing Street memo written by foreign secretary after his visit with cia's Tenet and other U.S. officials: "There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. . The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. . The most likely timing in U.S. minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the U.S. Congressional elections."

8/7/02 Bush given Iraq war plan by Gen. Franks.

8/20/02 "We may or may not attack. I have no idea yet." -Bush

"There are al Qaeda in Iraq. ... There are." -Rumsfeld

8/26/02 "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends . and against us." - Cheney

9/8/02 Page 1 New York Times story by Judith Miller and Michael Gordon cites anonymous administration officials saying Saddam has repeatedly tried to acquire aluminum tubes "specially designed" to enrich uranium. "The first sign of a 'smoking gun,' they argue, may be a mushroom cloud."

9/8/02 Tubes "are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs ... we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." - Rice on cnn

9/8/02 "We do know, with absolute certainty, that he is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon." -Cheney on Meet the Press

9/16/02 "The president hasn't made a decision to do anything with respect to Iraq." -Rumsfeld

9/16/02 White House economic adviser Lawrence Lindsey estimates Iraq war could cost $200 billion.

Mid-September 2002 American relatives of Iraqis sent as cia moles return from Iraq. All 30 report Saddam has abandoned wmd programs. President Bush never briefed.

9/19/02 Rumsfeld tells Congress that Saddam "has amassed large, clandestine stockpiles of chemical weapons, including VX, sarin and mustard gas."

9/25/02 "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." -Bush

9/25/02 Citing al-Libi intelligence, Rice says: "High-ranking detainees have said that Iraq provided some training to al Qaeda in chemical weapons development."

9/26/02 Classified dia assessment of Iraq's chemical weapons concludes there is "no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons."

9/26/02 In a speech in Houston, Bush says of Saddam: "After all, this is a guy who tried to kill my dad."

9/27/02 Rumsfeld calls link between Iraq and al Qaeda "accurate and not debatable."

October 2002 Administration decides not to take out Abu Musab al-Zarqawi because, though he is not yet working with al Qaeda, any terrorist in Iraq helps case for war. "People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president's policy of preemption against terrorists," a former nsc member later says.

10/7/02 Bush delivers a speech in which he says, "Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof - the smoking gun - that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud."

10/11/02 Congress - including all serious Democratic contenders - votes to grant Bush power to go to war.

10/20/02 Saddam empties prisons.

November 2002 cia station chiefs from Middle East gather for a secret meeting at the U.S. Embassy in London. The message: War is inevitable, just a few months away.

11/5/02 gop gains control of Senate.

11/8/02 U.N. Security Council passes Resolution 1441 offering Iraq "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations." Iraq agrees and U.N. weapons inspectors return.

11/14/02 Rumsfeld handicaps war length: "Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."

11/27/02 Weapons inspections resume in Iraq. Rumsfeld signs off on "Category III" interrogation techniques including "the use of scenarios designed to convince the detainee that death or severely painful consequences are imminent for him and/or his family." It is later shown that these methods are torture as defined in U.S. federal law, and that dod knew that at the time.

12/7/02 Iraq submits a 12,200-page declaration to the United Nations documenting all its unconventional arms. U.S. discredits the report because it does not mention the tubes or the Niger uranium.

12/21/02 Asked by Bush if there's any reason to doubt existence of wmd, Tenet says: "It's a slam-dunk case."

12/31/02 New war cost estimate generated: $50-$60 billion.

January 2003 National Intelligence Council warns Bush that war in Iraq could lead to an anti-U.S. insurgency and "increase popular sympathy for terrorist objectives."

1/9/03 Mohamed El Baradei, head of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency, echoes doe's view that the aluminum tubes sought by Iraq are likely for artillery rockets, not centrifuges. A senior Bush official responds, "I think the Iraqis are spinning the iaea."

1/9/03 After nearly two months, United Nations' Hans Blix says his inspectors have not found any "smoking guns" in Iraq.

1/11/03 Bush tells Saudi ambassador Prince Bandar he plans to go to war two days before he tells Secretary Powell.

1/20/03 Bush signs presidential directive giving Pentagon control over postwar Iraq.

1/28/03 In State of the Union, Bush says "the 16 words": "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." Bush adds that Saddam has "tried to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production" and has "mobile biological weapons labs."

1/31/03 Notes of meeting between Bush and Blair make clear Bush intends to invade Iraq even if U.N. inspectors found no evidence of wmd.

2/1/03 During U.N. speech rehearsal, Powell throws draft written by Libby into the air and says: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit."

2/4/03 After reading draft of Powell's speech, cia agent e-mails his superior with concerns about "the validity of the information based on 'CURVE BALL.' " Noting he's the only U.S. agent to have ever met Curveball (who was hung over at the time), the agent asks: "We sure didn't give much credence to this report when it came out. Why now?"

2/5/03 In U.N. speech, Powell says, "Every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence." Cites al-Libi's claims and Curveball's "eyewitness" accounts of mobile weapons labs. (German officer who supervised Curveball's handler will later recall thinking, "Mein Gott!") Powell also claims that Saddam's son Qusay has ordered wmd removed from palace complexes; that key wmd files are being driven around Iraq by intelligence agents; that bioweapons warheads have been hidden in palm groves; that a water truck at an Iraqi military installation is a "decontamination vehicle" for chemical weapons; that Iraq has drones it can use for bioweapons attacks; and that wmd experts have been corralled into one of Saddam's guest houses. All but the last of those claims had been flagged by the State Department's own intelligence unit as "WEAK."

2/7/03 Rumsfeld ups war length estimate: "It could last.six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."

2/8/03 U.N.'s Team Bravo, led by American bioweapons experts, searches Curveball's former work site in Iraq and disproves many of his claims.

2/8/03 In radio address to the nation, Bush warns that "firsthand witnesses [read: Curveball] have informed us that Iraq has at least seven mobile factories" for germ warfare.

2/15/03 Largest demonstrations in history. In 600 cities worldwide, millions protest war.

2/25/03 Gen. Eric Shinseki tells Congress "several hundred thousand troops" will be needed to occupy Iraq. Rumsfeld retaliates, naming Shinseki's successor 14 months before the end of his term.

2/27/03 U.S. diplomat John Brady Kiesling resigns, citing the "distortion of intelligence" and "systematic manipulation of American opinion."

2/27/03 Wolfowitz tells congressional hearing: "I am reasonably certain that they will greet us as liberators . the notion of hundreds of thousands of American troops is way off the mark."

3/1/03 Iraq destroys four missiles, meeting a U.N. deadline to begin disarming.

3/3/03 iaea official tells U.S. that the Niger uranium documents were forgeries so error-filled that "they could be spotted by someone using Google."[!]

3/7/03 U.S., Britain and Spain present a revised draft resolution giving Saddam an ultimatum to disarm by March 17 or face the possibility of war. France refuses to sign on to ultimatum.

3/7/03 Blix tells U.N. Security Council that there's "no evidence" of mobile bioweapons facilities in Iraq.

3/8/03 On cnn, Joe Wilson says, "I think it's safe to say that the U.S. government should have or did know that [the Niger documents were] fake before Dr. El Baradei mentioned it in his report at the U.N. yesterday." Decision to discredit Wilson made at a meeting within the office of the vice president.

3/15/03 Bush, Tony Blair and Spain's president have "emergency summit." Bush gives United Nations one day to find a diplomatic solution.

3/16/03 Cheney on Meet the Press: "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." (Cheney later claims he misspoke.) Adds, "I really do believe that we will be greeted as liberators."

3/17/03 U.S. and UK fail to secure U.N. resolution authorizing use of force. Bush gives Saddam 48 hours to surrender.

3/18/03 Washington Post article headlined "Bush Clings to Dubious Allegations About Iraq" notes, "As the Bush administration prepares to attack Iraq this week, it is doing so on the basis of a number of allegations against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein that have been challenged - and in some cases disproved - by the United Nations, European governments and even U.S. intelligence reports." Story is buried on Page A13.

3/20/03 War begins.

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Reply to
Alex Magdaleno

Reply to
jerrystudebaker

Thank you. I wish everyone here with a political axe to grind would take it to private email. Jerry Forrester

Reply to
jerrystudebaker

Please forward that to Alex directly.

Lee

Reply to
Lee Aanderud

Reply to
Pat Drnec

I've been trying to do my part. I'd suggest that, now that each side has aired their view, we do exactly that. I'm always up for a discussion, but doing it here is like sharing your very important cell phone conversation with the general public - potentially informative and generally irritating.

I'm really try> Thank you. I wish everyone here with a political axe to grind would take it

Reply to
Pat Drnec

Alex, I don't think that anyone here doubts that the administration did not give the public all the information that it/they had and may even have misled the public. Prudent governments (and imprudent goverments) do that for security reasons of some type. The only question is motive.

Anyhow, I am now limiting my political remarks to a Republican group (inhabited mostly by Democtrats, it seems) and a Vets group. All sorts of silly schit there and VERY LONG SUBJECT LINES MADE OF ALL UPPER CASE LETTERS THAT I DON'T BOTHER WITH AS THE WRITER OBVIOUSLY HAS NO CLASS AND DOESN'T CARE IF THE MESSAGE IS READ AS THE WHOLE THING IS IN THE SUBJECT LINE ANYHOW !!!!!!!!! Karl

Reply to
midlant

Is this the same Kinky Friedman that sang Geronimo's Cadillac ? All the abuse you have to take for trying to save someone the price of an issue of Hot Rod magazine.No good deed goes unpunished. I always liked your Tag line,it is long but so what. No one else has one like it.

Reply to
jflan63

Because nobody else cares to.

Lee

Reply to
Lee Aanderud

That's him:

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As for the rest, I take comfort in Einstein (even if it is a bit grandiose):

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."

He had a lot of them:

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another favorite:

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."

Thanks for the kind words.

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Reply to
Pat Drnec

Ok, What issue of Hot Rod? I would like to go out and get it! Thanks, FlatheadGeo.

Reply to
FlatheadGeo

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