Ethanol conversion?

If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich' enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it in short order.

I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.

Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?

Dave

How exactly are Subies different from any other modern piston engine in regards to ethanol?

Probably no difference. I was quoting the guy who spent 10 years messing around with ethanol with his Sube. In any case, I hear so many complaints about ethanol by those stuck with E10 that I thought it worth citing an example of excellent performance with E85 when the conversion is thorough (mixtures right, fuel pressure raised, to mention two changes I happen to remember).

(snip)

Good idea. I'll do it.

What have you heard?

We've had E10 here in Connecticut for ~ 5 years, since MBTE was banned. I've never heard anyone complain, except for aircraft or classic car uses.

And it gives roughly 5% poorer gas mileage on most cars.

Hi,

Over the weekend I was at racing event where one of the "special" events involved a New Beetle that's being campaigned throughout the US running on E85.

I asked the fellow what tuning mods they had to do to run it on E85. He said they'd swapped out the ECU for a programmable aftermarket unit (makes sense for different track conditions, I suppose) and they had to enrich the mixture by approx 25%. I didn't ask if he achieved that w/ just the ECU, or if he had to swap out injectors, too.

Now since this is for racing apps, street use might not require THAT much enrichment. However, I'd probably consider looking at what GM and Ford have done w/ their "flex fuel" models to see how they handle the transition between fuels on the street before going too far w/ a vehicle not originally designed for E85.

Rick

Yes, the estimates run from a few percent to 15 percent worse mileage. And the price is not lower enough to compensate.

You might want to share the fully objective learned information that caused you to draw this conclusion. Be sure to factor in the unprecedented rise in food prices that you are paying with the diversion of crops to ethanol production, a not so hidden cost. I have to eat, I don't necessarily have to drive.

What I've seen recently reported is that Congress is rethinking the whole subsidy thing considering that they might have been mistaken.

Biofuels and alternative energy sources have their place but legislating change is shear stupidity. Only about 5% of those in congress have degrees in science or engineering. Yet they legislate technical solutions from lobbyists whose clients profit from their new laws. Environmentalists have have put a strangle hold on practical, but environmentally friendly solutions like nuclear and clean burning coal.

If I were op, I would not waste my time. Subaru can make duel fuel vehicles. There is one E85 station in my whole state of Delaware, about

... Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if

OK. The best presentation I have found of the state of things is a new book "Energy Victory" by Robert Zubrin. To summarize, the most important use of oil in the US is for gasoline for transporation, and that requires liquid fuels. I am all in favor of nuclear plants for generating electricity. but we need a form of energy that is readily used in cars. The current theory is to generate hydrogen and compress it or liquify it and carry it around for fuel cells or combustion.

Hydrogen will never do. If it is in liquid form it will slowly boil off. I wouldn't want to go into a parking garage full of hydrogen- powered cars and light a match there. Compression require a heavy steel bottle to hold it, and that might double the weight of a car.

Hybrids are good, but they are expensive and heavy and they still use enough gasoline to make them inferior to biofuels. And batteries are a complication.

Ethanol is produced in abundance in Brazil at low cost using sugar as a feed stock. We should not be charging a high tariff on its importation. Nor should we be subsidizing the use of corn for ethanol; the evidence is not clear that our diversion of corn from food to fuel is solely responsible for world-wide food inflation, but in any case, there are many other sources from which to make biofuels. Coal is one of them if you consider using methanol.

Distribution of ethanol is a hard problem, but if it is important enough, it can be solved the way Brazil solved it: require all cars sold in the US to be flex-fuel. It goes against my libertarian principles, but solves the nucleation problem -- how to get a user base large enough to repay the massive installation of ethanol pumps.

Flex-fuel cars are pretty much like our gasoline cars; the main change is in range of mixtures that work. If we have the volume of production, the cost of a flex-fuel car should not be much more than current cars. Conversion of current cars should cost only a few hundred.

This is not the place to try to answer every question about bio- fuels. Get Zubrin's book!

Uncle Ben

I haven't read the book. However, I consider Zubrin no more an expert on that subject than I do Al Gore an expert in the area of global warming, causes and cures. I believe Zubrin has devoted most of his career to promotion of space exploration

Ah, where were you when I needed you in the seventies when my company, the leading producer of nuclear components and the first to engineer a "pre liscenced facility" was being pounded out of business by regulators, hollywood liberals, and the media.

I'm sure there was an expert that said "gasoline and the internal combustion engine will never replace the horse drawn carriage"

I was fortunate enough to be an evaluator at the local high school senior projects last week. One of the projects I evaluated was an electrolisis/fuel cell device. Yes there are problems. No it is not viable at this time. The one thing that I took away was the enthusiasm of the student and his intent to major in Engineering with the hope of working on fuel cell technology.

It is clear to me that with crop yield at record levels which usually causes a reduction in the price of corn, price has risen by approximately 25%. Direct relation to the diversion of a substantial portion of the crop to production of ethanol, driven by subsidies. You of course can believe what you wish.

I would prefer to let the free market dictate what direction we go in. "Requiring" by the government doesn't have a great track record in my view.

Maybe I will, if I can get comfortable with his credentials.

Frank

Yeah, no kidding. As a kid back then it seemed so apparent that nuclear was the only approach with a long-term future. Travel through West Va much lately? they scrape down mountains, and used to leave behind total wasteland mining coal...and this is different from a worst-case nuke problem how, exactly? Coal miners dies by the dozens every year, and their diseases are nasty...nuke plant workers do very well in contrast.

Anyway, spent fuel is easy if we realize that some part of this planet can hold lots of it....encapsulate it in teflon and drop it into the deepest South Pacific trench or under the North Pole. The environmental advocates may be seeing the light these days.

Go Nukes! :-)

-John O

I have to tell you about a place I used to hunt in PA that got strip mined. They left behind a golf course.

Twenty years ago, I saw Tennessee Eastman's coal syn gas plant and it was very clean. They used the syn gas to make chemicals but you can also make gas or use it to generate electricity. If necessary you can capture the CO2 for deep well injection or enhanced oil recovery.

Besides coal, nuclear is the way to go. Hybrid cars can have batteries recharged for enhanced mileage and this is going to require more electrical power.

A hydrogen fuel economy will probably never happen. Fuel cells using methanol as hydrogen source may be practical but another 10 years or so of fuel cell development is needed.

Very useful reference. Thank you.

It starts out with extreme pessimism, but if you read the whole thing, it is quite balanced and encouraging. Just don't get any water contamination in your E85 tank.

Ben

You must not know any motorcycle users who had to rejet. I was there for the switchover. Sucked!

Dave

Thank you for posting. I also doubt the long-term viability of most bio-fuels and certainly feel the present situation is untenable. Ethanol from corn is highly subsidized (and no, I do not want oil/gasoline subsidized either) at several levels. It cannot use the current gas pipeline distribution infrastructure. It MAY be an OK fuel for farm equipment local to the plant - but it will never be more than a curious 'pet project' for the nation at large. Growing food for cars 'may' be immoral!

;^)

The future for road transportation in general and more specifically 'city'-type travel will be vehicles that have regenerative braking capability. At present, those would be; hydraulic accumulators (Ford has this in a truck IIRC) compressed air (like the MIDI or whatever it' called) and electrics. Of course these technologies could be combined into hybrids. If you look at the mileage numbers for the Prius as an example, other ICE only cars can match it for highway mileage - but the city number is very high thanx to regen-braking.

I also think the Feds should consider allowing production of a class of vehicle 'intermediate' to cars and motorcycles. 3-4 wheel, lightweight enclosed vehicles with reduced 'mandates' in the size, safety and weight categories. perhaps restricted to adults only or dis-allowing babies, etc.

I feel all-electric cars may very well be the best choice eventually.

Carl

Regarding mandates vs market forces causing the transition to flex- fuel cars:

I am all for market solutions where they exist, but there are cases in which the market gets trapped into a sub-optimumal solution. It is like a liquid cooled below its normal freezing point -- supercooled. In these cases it takes an external event to help the liquid find its lowest free energy state, or to help the market find the best solution.

When oil gets to $500 per barrel and gasoline to $15 per gallon, the market might yield to the pressure, but it will be less costly if we convert to biofuels now, with the aid of legislation if necessary. The reasons go beyond personal economy: safety, the environment, and national security.

Requiring flex-fuel cars will cost the makers of automobiles less than what we pay OPEC for oil in one week.

Ben