Now I've had my 2000 OBW w/ 5MT for several years now, and so I've become very familiar with the rev-to-speedo relationships. For example, at 100kph (60mph), in 5th gear, I expect to see around 3000rpm. Recently however, I've seen the engine race upto 3500-4000 without shifting gears, or accelerating, while just maintaining an existing speed.
This makes sense on an auto transmission where there is expected to be some designed-in slippage due to the torque converter, but why should there be such a race condition in a manual transmission when the clutch is fully engaged? I would normally suspect that the clutch is slipping, but there is no burning smell or squeal or anything like that. I asked the dealership to take a look at it, and they couldn't reproduce it. The problem seems to happen mainly when it's really cold outside, at least
-10°C or less. There's no error codes either. I might try to reproduce it while I have a laptop graphing its OBDII port, but I think the coldest days of winter are probably behind us now, so I might not be able to reproduce it until next year.
It doesn't start smelling until you've been slipping it for a good bit. I bet if you let it overrev up to 3500 or so at 60 mph for a solid minute, then you'd probably be smelling it.
As the guys have said, your clutch is goin' away. About the only thing that might cause this to appear like it's worse in the cold would be the lube where the throw-out bearing slides getting sticky and not allowing a smooth release. Same end result, tho. I wish I had better news for you, but once a clutch gets to this point, there isn't much time left; probably the next time or two you drive it, you will be walking home . . .
About the only thing I can offer is that if you take it _real_ easy, and stick to back roads where the speeds don't exceed 3rd gear-ish, you may be able to nurse it along for a little longer (or at least get it home). If you feel it starting to slip, immediately back off; slippage causes heat, which will just accelerate the failure. Carry your cell phone.
A Subaru clutch job isn't terribly difficult, but cold weather makes the chore unpleasant. If you don't want to plop down $500 or more to pay someone to do it for you, you may want to park it and drive something else until the weather gets warm.
Oh, and don't be tempted to buy a cheap-o ebay clutch; either go with an OEM unit, or one of the Exedy performance ones. About twice the cost, but far preferable to having to do the job _again_ in 6 months or a year. Alas, I speak from sad experience on this one :-P
ByeBye! S. Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101
No, usually when I notice the revs going up like that, I usually let off the gas a bit and might even disengage the clutch, and then I'll try resynchronizing again. After that, it usually behaves normally for the rest of the way.
Okay guys, thanks for the info, it sounds like there is a consensus that there really is a clutch problem here.
I just talked to the dealer, and he's quoting $795 just for the parts. Then he's talking about $600 for the labour. Then I talked to a bunch of other local shops, they are quoting much lower for the parts, around $450 in most cases for the parts, and some $85-95 extra for re-machining the flywheel. What are the opinions of aftermarket parts? Any brands I should stay away from, or some that are really good?
Also the dealer believes that the reason it seems to happen more in the bitter-cold is because the hydraulic fluid is cold and it doesn't adjust as well in that environment until it heats up a bit, but he still believes that the clutch is probably pretty thin right now because this wouldn't have happened if there was enough material there, cold or no cold. As I said, the problem is not occurring right now, it only happened during the colder times, so I might have enough time to shop around properly.
One of the reasons, that the dealer price is so high, I assume is because they are talking about replacing the flywheel along with the clutch, whereas the other places are just talking about re-machining the flywheel. The dealer suggests that this is bad for the flywheel, but of course he would suggest that. Opinions?
As long as the flywheel surface is smooth and flat (straight edge across, shouldn't be more'n maybe 10 mil out), I just clean it up with a wire brush or roloc disk, and run with it.
That said, heat from the clutch plate slipping can easily temper the surface, leaving hard spots. If you see a bluish discoloration on the surface that doesn't clean up with a mild abrasive as above, probably best to get another flywheel (I shop salvage whenever possible), or have it turned. I know little about resurfacing flywheels, but I would suspect that, like most things, there are right and wrong ways to go about it. I'd stick with new or serviceable used to be safe.
I have installed the Exedy stage 1 clutch kit in both of our Forries ('99, and '02), and other than a bit higher pedal effort, they work great, and have entirely eliminated the annoying chatter observed in the OEM units. Centerforce is another proven winner. The el cheapo one I put in mine originally didn't even have enough spring in the pressure plate to get the pedal to come back off of the floor. I wasted way too much time messin' with the hydraulics and pedal cage ("It _can't_ be the clutch; it's brand new" . . . classic denial, I tell ya ;-) before resigning myself to spending $300 for the stage 1 clutch kit, and another weekend installing it. Poor man buys twice they say.
Realize that servicing the clutch requires pulling the transmission (probably the easiest way, if you have a hoist and tranny jack), or the engine, so you might as well replace the engine rear main seal while you're at it. Probably won't hurt to pop a new seal in the transmission input shaft as well. Throw-out, and pilot bearings come with the kit.
If the engine comes out, take the opportunity to replace the coolant hoses and thermostat; if the tranny, replace the transmission rear seal, and inspect the half shafts, drive shaft/ center bearing, and lower ball joints.
Plenty of decent independent shops out there, and at least as far as a clutch, there is nothing special the dealership can offer beyond $pecial pricing. FWIW, I'm strictly an amateur wrench, but I do have a car hoist, tranny jack, and decent hand tools. I'd imagine that actual time-on-the-job for a Soobie clutch with no other complications (via pulling the transmission, rather than the engine) is probably around 6 hours. 'Course I stop to drink beer, chat with the neighbor(s), go for lunch, put air in the kid's bicycle tires, walk the dogs, etc, so I usually manage to spread the job over a couple days, but I'd be pretty wary of a shop quoting much longer than 4 to 6 hours for the chore.
Hope this is helpful.
ByeBye! S. Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101
I got a clutch kit from rockauto.com and put it in in 2002. It now has about 91k miles onit with no issues. I only paid about 275 for it. I would not say that it was an easy job though. I had a bear of a time getting the tranny in and out between alignment pins binding and trying to coordinate getting the splined shafts in while aligning the shaft to the pilot bearing and moving that heavy mass... Well, it is not something I'd want to do in the cold. I spent hours with a floor jack trying to get it positioned just right. I eventually had my girlfriend get under the car and lift it up while I stood over the hood and pulled it into position by grabbing the starter mounting hole on the drivers side and something else on the other side. That method took just a few minutes.
If you DO decide to get a new flywheel, AND are tempted to get a lightweight FW, don't get crazy. Some folks have reported throwing codes with 9 lb FWs. A Little lighter (what? 15lbs or so?) probably OK. Maybe someone here has experience with that. For a grocery getter
Yea, like everything there are _various_ methods, some of which are perhaps a bit more effective. I've done the floor jack thing before, and . . . well, you were more polite than I would have been describing the struggle :-) But you got it done. Didn't that celebratory beer taste great!
If you're working with a transmission jack, it more or less retains the transmission alignment, and this greatly simplifies things. The other thing that really helps is if you rotate the input shaft of the tranny while you are sliding things together. Easiest way I've found is to slowly rotate both output shafts in the same direction with a screwdriver thru the pin holes while you push. This trick is much more difficult when you are lying on your back.
It's actually easier to pull the engine for the job if you are working in your driveway. A rented shop crane, or even a block and tackle on a tree limb is about the only special tool you need, and about the only real PITA are the heater hoses if you're trying to save them, and a couple of the AC compressor bolts.
As far as separating the tranny from the engine, isn't that a booger?
If you promise not to throw anything at me, I'll tell you how the "pros" do it. (I nearly had a cow when I first saw it done this way.).
What you do, is get yourself a nice sharp wood chisel, align that sucker with the seam adjacent to where one of the top bolts goes thru (where the castings are nice and thick),, and (er, um) drive it in. It'll separate, you betcha. Once you get a tiny gap, slide in something appropriately thin (a kitchen knife), move to the other side, and do it again. Then move down the sides if necessary, but usually they let go nicely once you get that first little bit.
This sounds (and looks, and feels) horrible, but I've never seen it cause damage that couldn't be cleaned up with a few licks from a file. Not like it's a sealing surface anyway, but . . .
ByeBye! S.
Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101
Your mechanic better know what he or she is doing. I had the flywheel resurfaced on my Porsche and a couple months later it had to be replaced. Not only that, because the flywheel was screwed the new clutch had to be replaced as well. If the price on a stock clutch/flywheel isn't outrageous just replace the set, and obviously make sure to check the seals.
Well, I assume when they say "resurfacing", that means the same as "turning".
Turning the flywheel, i.e. taking some material off of it, isn't going to affect it's durability is it? I know with brakes, when you grind them down, they usually only have one or two more grindings available before you have to totally replace, right? Is it something similar with the flywheel?
I've had that chatter with my OEM clutch ever since I bought the vehicle, it is annoying, and I always just assumed it was just the way Subies were designed due to their AWD systems. One of the shops mentioned Exedy as one of the possible parts that they use. I'll see if they can make sure it's that one or Centreforce.
Yeah, most of the shops are suggesting 5-6.5 hours, where they even specify hours involved. They will have to send it out to an outside shop for the flywheel turning though.
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