STi or WRX? any recomendations?

So true, but things could be a lot worse! I'm pleased to report that my 98.5 A4 2.8Q remains a dream to drive and a reliable car; I've only had to replace wear-related items (brakes, the rear wheel bearings, and the radiator) as of 83,000 miles. I haven't experienced the dreaded control arm problems or anything else, but granted, I did fork over the $$ for the suggested water pump/timing belt/thermostat changeout at about 68,000 miles. I lust after the 2005.5 A4 1.8Q with the new nose, but I just can't financially justify that when I've got a good Audi that's serving me so well in these western New York winters. Our 1999 Legacy Outback is also a very good, reliable car, but not as fun or safe to drive.

Oh dry up 2stroke....just READ all the problems posted RIGHT HERE and other places, the 2.5 engines are complete crap. The cars require high maintenance.The entire Subaru line is trouble prone, but especially the WRX and the (pig)Sti. Your just a "Brand loyal" druid...you think..if its made by Subaru it has to be great....dream on...they are junk cars.

Please don't tell that to my '99 Outback with 105k miles on it. I've owned it since it was brand new and I've spent a grand total of $600 on it. And it still runs like new.

Face it Rast, you just hate Subaru. Why don't you just tell us why?

If you hate Subarus that much, why are you posting here in the first place?

Do you dare to come all the way to the D.R. just to slap me?

Have you checked the manual for your car? With the Torsen center diff on many Audis (no idea what if any LS diff is in back), it might be a lot less sensitive to differences in tire diameter than, for example a Subaru.

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DR RASTIS FAF00FNIK" Jan 18, 2005 at 06:35 AM

performance

get

You know, you remind me of the now obsolete cassingle - put in the tape & it plays the same one song both sides over and over. What has happened to make you loathe Subarus so much? We'd actually love to know once and for all! In Aus they consistently top class comparisons and return above average residuals and resale values. Do Fuli Heavy Industries build a special 'bad' model for the US or are your homebuilt models far below international standards ... or is it just you?

But back to the question. WRX is a quick, engaging and occasionally silly everyday driver. STi is far more single focused than the WRX, quicker and tighter in the right environment and much less compromising and accommodating as an everyday drive, which will probably make it a royal pain in some situations!. A friend of mine regularly does 3000km round trips in his and still has his licence. How I'm not quite sure .... Your money; your choice. Cheers

The data does not back up your opinion. As I mentioned earlier, the Impreza line has a good repair record according to Consumer Reports which pools thousands of owners. While CR is not the end-all of automotive information, I would have more confidence in its data than your postings.

And the STi is a pig... a wild pig. It has a low center of gravity, can pull like a Romania weight lifter on 'roids, and gut most other cars with its razor-like handling.

I wish my Audi had that 2.5 liter engine!

to differences

It's not. New tire are on!

There's a guy at work that drives a 12 year old S line Audi (don't know which model). He's past 175,000 miles with only routine maintenance. You never know what you might get with an Audi so when you do manage to get a good one it is wise to hang on to it.

BTW the 1.8t engine is supplanted with the new 2.0 turbo with improved torque & hp. Best luck with your A4.

Hey, I live in Ohio. Considering the weather here lately, I'd be knocking at your door in an instant!

The DR... please don't rub that in right now (new winter storm on the way).

"Dr. Rastis Fafoofnik" wrote in news:ZFCHd.12657$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com:

Product newsgroups attract problem posts because that's where people come for advice and solutions. Just because many of the posts are problem related doesn't mean that Subaru is a bad choice.

What do YOU drive and if Subaru is so bad why don't you offer suggestions for similarily equipped vehicles that YOU think are a better choice?

Rast,

Don't you drive a FORD? If so, I can't imagine how one can complain about Subaru when you drive a Found On Road Dead.

Well, if you could see the blue sea out my window, you'd burst into tears. About 28 degrees C outside, so it's not that hot.

Sounds like you are the "man with the plan". Let us know what you end up buying and hope you do well with whichever car you purchase.

28 C, you need the STi its got the Intercooler spray to keep the turbo working at maximum efficiency when it gets hot.

STi it is then.

R

I have owned a WRX (an '02, Canadian model) and recently traded it in for a Canadian-spec '04 STi (300 HP 2.5-litre engine, normal non-HID lights, radio/etc standard instead of just an option, etc.)

Impressions are going to be limited to the differences I felt between the two vehicles, I'm afraid;

Suspension and Ride "Feel"

The STi ride is *much, much* harsher. It's hard enough, especially on the stock tires, that I can joke to people, "You'll chip a tooth driving over a dime." The suspension is ridiculously stiff and rigid in comparison to the WRX. Every bump in the road rattles the cabin, every line on the pavement gets tracked and pulls the car side to side, and driving it around on normal city roads (i.e. crappy unmaintained pavement) requires constant concentration and attention to the steering wheel. If you let your mind wander, so will the car.

At highway speeds, things even up a little, but in wet conditions the stock tires are moderate to inadequate. Many of the STi drivers I'm aware of have nasty accidents because they pull stupid stunts like shifting in the middle of a tight corner on wet roads. (More on STi shifting and steering further down.) As far as I'm aware, I'm the only STi in my area that hasn't had a serious accident yet.

Steering and Control (a.k.a. Shifting, Steering and Control)

The STi has a limited-slip front differential, which the standard WRX does

*not.* This translates into *loads* more understeer in the STi, to the point where the difference is palpable. When you test-drive, take it around a corner and blip the throttle a few times. Each time, you'll notice the car pulls *hard* to the outside of the curve. If you're not careful, this kind of behaviour in a car can get an inexperienced driver into loads of trouble. (See above note re: accidents.)

There is a Japanese motoring show I watched recently which describes (after translation) why they did that, and they claim that while the front differential and design of the car introduces a great deal of understeer, apparently it's done on purpose for road "cupping" and grip and stability at high speeds--for rally conditions, in other words.

The stock WRX has loads of body roll as well. I have a picture of a friend whipping around a corner in a WRX wagon, and at the apex of the curve the inside wheels are almost off the ground and the car itself is at an almost

25-30 degree rolling angle from the horizontal.

The STi has almost no body roll by comparison. Oh sure, there's some, and if you steer right out to the point where the stock summer tires slip in hot dry weather and your car is full of people, you're going to notice it. But it feels tighter, cleaner, grippier. Going around corners is as surefooted as you're going to get. There is no nervousness in the car. At the limits, if you ever get the gall to approach them, it's a fraction of a degree between "cleanly drifting" and "write-off". You have lots of notice that the stock tires are losing grip, but it's at such high speeds that even plenty of notice won't save you from the corners it would normally, comfortably take.

Shifting in the STi is completely different from the WRX. Whereas the WRX feels clumsy and mushy sometimes, the STi, though a little rubbery, feels tighter and stronger. For example, if the transmission is cold, you're going to have a tough time downshifting--even just to second--without being overly rough on the shifter. There is also a noticeable shuddering when pulling away from a light in first when it's cold, unless you're very careful and gentle. This is normal. Once things warm up it gets easier and smoother.

At higher speeds, the sixth gear of the STi is *very* nice to have, although the seemingly shorter gear ratios at lower speeds means you're going to be shifting--all day, every day, every waking moment you're in the STi it seems you're shifting it from gear to gear. Not to say this is bad: in corners it means you have lots of gears to choose from when you enter them, which is good. On a recent episode of Fifth Gear, Tiff was complaining that the Mercielago had basically one gear all the way to

60mph, and that was first, and that was limiting what he could do in the corners. The STi suffers from no such lack of gears. Rev it up and shift it down and you can pull all kinds of fun stunts in corners. Shift it again and you have a nice chunk of immediately-available power to get you back up to speed. On the STi, there's never a point where you find yourself wishing for a gear in between the ones you just shifted through.

If you're not careful, the stiffness of the shifter can also be a little disconcerting, but *DON'T* pull it out of the halfway-in point and try again. You'll feel (and hear) what sounds like grinding. I've only experienced this once, and the sinking feeling in my stomach guaranteed it'll never happen again.

Oh, one final note for this part: the dealership I have is brutally honest with me, or is at least transparent, at all times. My dealer, for example, told me I should use downshifting as much as possible to brake, that fixing the brakes in some cases has cost the owner more than fixing the engine. Yikes.

Changing Tires

On my STi I realised that as another Canadian winter approached I'd have to change the stock summer tires on my STi to either a good all-season or a winter tire. I opted for the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S Ultra High Performance All Season. On the first ride I noticed an immediate difference. While the stock Bridgestone Potenza RE070's had a super-stiff sidewall, the Pirellis felt mushy and weak. By comparison, the difference was like that between a on train rail versus being at the top of a jack-in-the-box. Mushy, bulbous, shock-absorbing, quiet. As someone who pays an almost paranoid attention to his car, I can say that I was worried about the Pirellis after getting used to the Potenzas. It's quite unsettling.

I shouldn't have been concerned. It turns out the grip on the Pirellis in all but dry conditions is vastly superior, and since the expected treadwear is about four times what the RE070's is and I live in an extremely rainy location, I *might* just leave the Pirellis on in the coming summer months anyway. Plus the ride is a little more bearable and smooth for my passengers.

Unfortunately, to get the kind of performance out of the car that it's capable of delivering, you *have* to buy the ultra-high performance all seasons, or maximum performance summers, or rally-day winters that wouldn't last more than a couple months on a dry road. These types of tires are extremely expensive--but buying anything less would be a disservice to the car and yourself.

Problems I Personally Saw

The WRX I drove burst a head gasket. Apparently it was a known problem, but in my area my head gasket, and that of another guy who was a hardcore racing driver, were the only ones the dealership saw busted up at the time I brought mine in. I guess we just drove our cars harder, but I never got an answer as to why until I learned about it again only very recently. It has to do with radiator fluid. Apparently there are certain standard additives that wreck our particular head gaskets, and now that they're aware of the problem, modern WRXs from reputable dealers are no longer suffering from it. (Apparently they now add a standard conditioner which "fixes" the problem. Stop-leak maybe?)

The STi has so far been very well-behaved, and really the only "problems" I've been having, if you could call them that, are that the gas mileage is terrible on my STi and other stuff (like tires) I have to buy for it are also rich-man-only expensive. Honestly--worse mileage than a 2001 Corvette? WTF? I personally think it's worth it, but just driving to work and around town locally I spend about $200/month in gas, Canadian. When I first got the car I spent over $800 in gas in a month, and over $1500 after two months. That's a lot of money. The manual recommends 94 octane fuel but says that "92 or 91" will do *only* if 94 isn't available in my area. I keep a pile of octane boosters in my trunk just in case, but the point is, gas for the STi is expensive. Gas for my WRX was nowhere near what I'm paying now.

The change to Pirellis cost me $1300 for all four tires (included was the installation,) plus $60 for a laser wheel alignment. That's a helluva chunk of change to blow on tires.

The Look

Something that really bothers a lot of people when they consider buying an STi is the almost cartoonish spoiler and the massive hoodscoop. I've literally been sitting at a gas station fueling up (yet again) and had people shout out their windows, "Wow, what comic book did you drive that thing out of?" In my case it was admiration from a fellow car enthusiast, but it does make you think about the look of the car.

Those two features are a big stumbling block for the older drivers who own or want to own an STi. On a recent Tuner Transformation (TV show about monstrously tuning up cars) the feature car was an STi and the driver wanted a smidgen more power but mainly to get rid of the hoodscoop and the spoiler.

I believe Subaru knows what they're doing. I shudder to think what a missing spoiler is going to do for that guy's aerodynamics.

I think appearance should be next-to-meaningless to an STi enthusiast. The way a car "looks" should only be of concern to people who are concerned with looks, and there are far better-"looking" cars out there for them to lavish their attentions on.

I mean really--who cares how a car looks? Both the spoiler and the hoodscoop are functional, so leave them be unless you're going to get a front-mounted intercooler. But then what about winter conditions and rocks and gunk clogging up the front grill? Who are we to presume that we know better about what's good for a Subaru than Subaru themselves?

Conclusion

If you aren't an enthusiast who's willing to grit your teeth and psych yourself up every time you climb into your car, don't waste your time with an STi. If you're not willing to sacrifice your wife's riding comfort, stick with the WRX. If you're not willing to see the STi drain your financial future away in gas money and the cost of tires and regular maintenance, ignore the siren call of the STi.

If you're not willing to face up to the fact that the vehicle's intoxicating power comes close to luring you into personally life-threatening situations on occasion, and you can't control yourself in competitive environments, it would be safer for you to stick with a WRX.

A BMW M3 driver (the fast, 2001 and later kind) I know had to sell his car because he felt that he couldn't trust himself behind the wheel to stay within safe limits. He would race any supercar that came along, careening around corners at 200kph+ and he felt that he was putting his life at risk as a result of his ultra-competitive nature. If you are not completely confident that you can keep yourself under control based not on speculation but actual experiences you've already been through, do

*NOT* buy an STi, for your own safety.

If the STi is going to be your only car and you're not a hard-core rallysport, willing-to-fork-money-out by-the-bushel, STi enthusiast who thinks the STi is near the pinnacle of modern vehicular development, buy a WRX instead. You won't be sorry.

Otherwise, on behalf of all the other insane STi owners out there, welcome to the club!

Be sure and let us know how long that WRX lasts for him! ;)

RE092s do suck. On my old WRX I went through a couple sets of them, and I have to say--BLARGH. They're nice and grippy to start out with, but after about 8K-10K, suddenly they turn into slippery, squealy crud. I was disappointed with those tires on many occasions, and I never felt very safe driving around on them.

Get the Pirellis. Cheaper, and reported better performance and tread wear. I have a set on my STi now, and I've driven them enough to be comfortable with what they're capable of. Far superior to the OEM RE070s on my STi in everything but dry weather, and infinitely better than the RE092s from my WRX.

In the rain, the Pirellis are just amazing. Truly amazing. If I hit a big puddle, I "feel" it far less than I did with the RE070s. Those little arcing grooves seem to make a big difference. They impart a great deal of confidence in the weather around here, and their grip on snow is great. They're certainly no winter tire, and if you're not careful the power of the WRX or STi will spin you right off the road, but they're the best all-season I've ever experienced. So far. Plus their dry-pavement grip is astounding. :)