Aftermarket brake parts

jim wrote in news:Fv6dnYF8-L2J8r_WnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@bright.net:

That there is an observable difference between Honda/Toyota OEM filter media and aftermarket media for the same cars.

If the "dirty" side doesn't leak into the center pipe, this would mean that the filter will remain more full after shutdown than it would otherwise. That's a good thing.

Yes.

I merely say that filter media that is guaranteed to meet OEM specs (being sold through authorized OEM outlets) behaves differently from that which is not sold through authorized OEM channels.

My assumption, therefore, is that the behavior of the OEM media is the behavior preferred by the automaker.

I forgot to say that also discovered that if I use a small tool to push the ADBV open on the OEM filters (breaking the seal), suddenly the center pipe begins to fill up from the dirty side, just like aftermarket. So maybe it's also the ADBV and not just the media which makes the difference. I don't know.

If the "dirty" side doesn't leak into the center pipe, this would mean that the filter will remain more full after shutdown than it would otherwise. This means slightly quicker oil-pressure build on startup.

Because it's easier to see inside if you hold it open-end up; you can watch the center pipe slowly fill. Or not fill, as the case may be.

Hold it upside down and watch the oil dribble out instead, if you prefer.

Well maybe. How many observations are we talking about here? one? two?

50? Are these observations on the same vehicles using the same conditions for both OEM and other filters? How many other filters were tried?

You are talking about oil flowing in the direction it is designed to flow. there is a valve that prevents it from flowing in the opposite direction, but there isn't supposed to be anything preventing it to flow in this direction. There is no reason to believe what you are observing says anything at all about how it behaves when it sits attached to the engine.

So what is it you think is preventing it from flowing thru the media in your test?

Well you observed what happens when the filter media is dirty and when the oil is dirty. How about when the oil and filter are clean? Or how about when it is just a little dirty?

I'm willing to agree that your observation might be an indication that the OEM filter is more aggressive at removing dirt from the oil. The filter with the most dirt is likely to resist flow the most. But we don't know if that means its a better filter or is it a dirtier engine? or was it left on longer? I think to find out how meaningful your observation is you need to try it first with clean oil and clean filter. I pretty sure you will observe quite a different behavior in the OEM filter when its clean.

You are assuming there would be any good reason for that preference. How it behaves after it is removed from the car and about to be thrown away might not be a very important design consideration.

Are you telling us you have evidence that a filter made by Fram is the only one on the market that has a working ADBV????

But, your observation doesn't mean the ADBV is not working. That valve is intended to prevent oil from flowing backward (in the opposite direction you are trying to make the oil flow). It is not supposed to prevent it from flowing forward (or to keep air from flowing forward). How do you know the other filters are not just letting air into the dirty side by drawing it in slowly thru the filter media? On a brand new oil filter air can pass thru the filtering media very easily.

That is just plain not factually correct. The resistance of the filter media to oil flowing forward and that the filter media is impermeable to allowing air to flow back (when it is dirty) doesn't say anything at all about whether it will prevent back flow. Your test doesn't really give any indication that the back flow prevention is not working. It does prove that when not much pressure is present and the filter is dirty the oil does indeed move slowly thru a filter. Sometimes so slowly you think it is noot ov ing at all. If you want to see how fast the oil pressure builds on a car on start up observe the oil pressure gauge or the oil pressure light. On most cars the oil light will go out a second or two after you turn the key (often before the engine is running) Your test is not really telling you anything at all about that. If I observed what you had I would be thinking maybe next time i should change the oil a little sooner, and see if that changes the observed behavior.

There are definitely differences in flow resistance in different brand filter media and there are definitely differences due to how dirty the media is. I would bet if you go away and let the filter sit for an hour. When you come back you would see that it has been slowly seeping into the center.

Yes that is what I often prefer. It can then slowly empty. If the opening is facing up it will only fill the center until the level is equalized with the outer part. Then you have to empty it and wait for more to seep in.

-jim

A truly witty rejoinder and quite apropos albeit haplessly wasted on a nincompoop dilettante.

Get a f'ing room, you two.

nate

jim wrote in news:Itidnbc2b-1eN7_WnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@bright.net:

More like 50. Same two vehicles. A number of aftermarket filters, maybe four or five types, can't remember now.

I don't know. All I know is what I see with my own eyes.

All the filters I remove myself are on the car for 3,000 miles or less, so they're still pretty clean when removed.

But while the filter is still on the engine its performance is of great and continued importance. And the automaker has no idea exactly when the filter will be removed and discarded.

Maybe. How do I know? All I know is what I see.

You're not using OEM Honda or Toyota filters, then.

That maybe true, but your test demonstrates that the way the filter behaves after it has been used in you car has changed considerably from when the filter was fresh and clean. Try it with a clean filter and clean warm oil if you don't believe me. If you get the oil warm enough with a new filter and fresh oil it will run like water into the center hole.

All very true, but what you are observing can only happen after someone removes the filter from the car.

Do you see "Honeywell" on the filter?

That is correct. I am not and I certainly will not ever be using your used ones. A fresh clean filter is not going to behave like that. But I do like your little test and i will have to check it out when I have the opportunity.

jim wrote in news:ftOdnVUtmaUtmr7WnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@bright.net:

The point is that I have found that leakage occurs ONLY with aftermarket filters with 3,000 miles on them, not OEM filters with 3,000 miles on them.

THAT is the important part, regardless of how those filters would behave when brand-new.

And I'm seeing a difference in behavior between OEM and aftermarket for the /same/ oil, the /same/ cars, and the /same/ mileage.

Again, THAT is the important part, regardless of how those filters would behave when brand-new.

Yep. FRAM/AlliedSignal/Honeywell have supplied Honda Canada with their OEM oil flters for at least 20 years now.

I see the OEM Toyota filters say "DENSO" on them.

Yes I agree that your test does indicate there is substantial functional difference between different brands of oil filter media.

What I disagreed with is your interpretation that the test proves you will get quicker oil pressure on cold starts. If you are interested in knowing how different filters behave with respect to oil pressure on cold starts then devise a test using an oil pressure gauge. The knowledge of how it behaves on cold starts is not going to be acquired by taking the filter off the car and using dubious logic on what you observe. Cutting filters open and inspecting the guts isn't going to tell you much about how it performs on cold starts either.

Yes and that means only one thing: After 3000 miles one filter offers more resistance to the oil flow than another. In all likelihood the reason for this difference is because the one filter is removing more particles of dirt from the engine than the others.

Important part???? Important part of what? I hope you don't mean the important part of some superstitious dogma or belief system.

I do agree (and have never disputed) that your test is A) easy for anybody who changes oil to perform and B) does in your case demonstrate a functional difference between the OEM filters and other filters.

I didn't know that. I did know that US Hondas still had OEM filters made by WIX (and others) as recently as 5 years ago. And it has also been my observation that Honeywell uses a filter media that is different and behaves differently than a WIX. And the way I know that is similar sort of functional test of dirty filters.

-jim

Really? When I take off a Honda filter and hold it open end up, it fills the center pipe almost immediately, and they all have for at least the past

15 years. Maybe the ones they sell in Canada are different than what we get in Texas?

"E. Meyer" wrote in news:C7491BD3.14A66% snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net:

And when you dump it, does it fill again, and keep filling each time after you dump it?

Maybe the ones they sell in Canada are

I'm told US-market Honda filters are made by a different company from the Canadian ones.

Yes.

They pretty much all say Fram. Occasionally I've seen a Filtech.

Talking like you do, you must be some kind of expert. Just how much experience do you have installing brakes on Honda's and Toyota's?