Electric Vehicles

The news is that production capacity for lithium ion batteries is coming on-line. And these plants are partially funded by recent Federal grants. Of course these are batteries for electric vehicles and hybrids. What's the problem ?

Well, there's an electric vehicle benchmark and it's the Tesla Roadster. The advantage of the Tesla Roadster is not that it is small or that it only has two seats but the advantage is a vehicle construction type that is both strong and lightweight. The Tesla Roadster has a frame of extruded aluminum in tall cross-sections and then has a fiberglass bodywork over the frame. The car is then strong enough to carry the batteries but the total weight of the vehicle including batteries is very reasonable. The benchmark is that the Tesla Roadster has a range of 245 miles while having a vehicle weight that is only 7.12% more than a traditional vehicle. (In this case the Tesla Roadster weight is compared to an automatic transmission Mazda MX5 which is a similar size vehicle but of unibody construction and with an internal combustion engine.)

So the problem is that there is not any electric vehicles on the horizon that meet the benchmark. This is the obvious failure of the electric vehicle. Of course for the Tesla Roadster to set the benchmark that car is then very expensive. Well, the batteries are expensive and the vehicle construction method is expensive.

But the failure of the electric vehicle ? Well not exactly because there is a fuel cell vehicle that meets the benchmark. It's the Honda Clarity which is more like in consumer testing rather than in consumer sales but in a few consumer hands. Now the Honda Clarity has a range of 240 miles and a weight that is 8.32% more than a traditional vehicle. (Here the weight of the Honda Clarity is compared to a 4- cylinder Toyota Camry which has similar body and wheelbase dimensions.)

Of course a fuel cell vehicle fuels with hydrogen, produces electricity from a chemical reaction and then drives an electric motor. And the hydrogen fueling stations are in locations that have a few fuel cell buses running. For instance Southern California has about a dozen hydrogen stations, Northern California has a few hydrogen stations, Chicago has a few hydrogen stations, NYC has one or two hydrogen stations, and Orlando has a few hydrogen stations.

So the final point here is that the Federal government has a battery program but no hydrogen program.

Reply to
PolicySpy
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Do you know what Henry Ford 1 said about electric cars more than 100 (one-hundred) years ago?

Nothing has changed since then.

(Unfortunately I have only the German edition, do not want to re-translate)

w.

Reply to
Helmut Wabnig

Where will the batteries be manufactured?? How will the electricity to charge these batteries be generated??

Reply to
The PHANTOM

The existing grid can handle charging 10's of millions of EV's without any changes. Ben

Reply to
ben91932

I don't mean to bust your little bubble, but electric vehicles are not in any way environmentally friendly. While it is true that they do not emit any C02 at the car, the predominant sources of electricity are burned coal, oil or nuclear, hardly green. The best way to go is bio- fuel, which produces oxygen and consumes C02 while it grows.

PS. I don't have an SUV.........................................I have two...! God it's great to be an American..................

Reply to
Double-Aces

You just wanted to delete the post:

For a couple of decades electric delivery vehicles were commercially successful in cities.

If it becomes prohibitively expensive for most people to drive SUVs and other large vehicles, which seems very likely, then many will need to have food and other items delivered. A battery powered mail truck or milk van could once again make sense for these delivery services.

This would allow much greater use for EVs like the Tesla or high mpg vehicles like the 120 km/l in line two seater by VW.

If you need to haul a boat then you can take your V-8 truck out of storage or rent an SUV and pay what will soon be a $3/mile for fuel.

If you want to drive across the country without stopping every 250 miles you'll need some money.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
Bret Cahill

References, please?

Everything from the power plant to the driveway outlet, of course...

Reply to
jmorriss

Maybe if you somehow restrict all charging until after 11 PM, particularly in the summer months.

Reply to
jimp

You haven't mentioned what kind of electric vehicle you drive.......................

Reply to
Double-Aces

Typical home central air draws 15-20 amps.

The GM volt supposedly charges in

6 hours at 12 amps 8 hours at 8 amps. Claimed battery range 40 miles. Plugs into any 120v outlet that can take the amp draw without tripping a breaker.

The Nissan Leaf claims 100 miles battery range. Here's some tidbits from

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************************************************************ The home charging dock will require a 220/240V 40 amp dedicated circuit connected to a breaker. The charging dock will need to be hard-wired directly to the circuit by a certified electrician. We expect the standard home charging dock installation to be around $2,200, but this will vary with the age and configuration of your home. Federal tax credits may offset 50% of the cost (up to $2000) through Dec. 2010 unless government extends it further.

It takes about ~30 minutes to 80% at a 480 volt quick-charge station. Starting from a depleted battery, ~8 hours at 220/240V (depending on amperage), about 20 hours at 110/120V.

Your Nissan LEAF will be delivered with a 110/120V Trickle charge cable that works with the onboard charging system. As the name implies this will be primarily used for opportunity charging and is not recommended to be your primary method of charging. For that we have the Nissan home charging dock which uses a 220/240V dedicated line in your home. (Note: this is the 20 hour charging option, and you can use a standard outlet. And that actually might work for those who don't drive far on a daily basis. But you can see that Nissan isn't recommending it as your primary means of charging. Probably expect those chargers to fail too often )

*************************************************************

I didn't see amp draws for the Leaf. But I'd guess most suburban/country infrastructures can handle the electric load of maybe 20% of households charging a car. It'll be years before charging a car gets close to 20% of households. That's just a wild ass guess. Hot areas already suffering brownouts don't qualify.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

No one cares what you have up on blocks out in front of yer doublewide.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
Bret Cahill

Sadly not. The existing grid is in pretty lousy shape, all things considered, and really can't handle the existing demand all that reliably. Mind you, it's not like being in the Phillipines with rolling blackouts, but it's not anything like the safety margins we had in the sixties and seventies.

But, I would say that upgrading the grid and providing more generation closer to the points of demand is something that is going to have to happen soon if we want to continue the comfortable lives we all lead. And if we are doing that, planning for EV demand is just a short step beyond.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

The immediate problem isn't the grid but getting an affordable EV suitable as a second car for commuting.

We'll cross the grid bridge when we get to it.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
Bret Cahill

Okay, that would be a battery with 9 kilowatt-hours total capacity, which is kind of small.

Okay, if you're driving for 40 minutes with a 9 kilowatt hours, that gives you about 7 KW power, or about 10 horsepower. That's kind of low but it's not impossible.

Still... what good is a car with a 40 mile range?

If you want to have an actual practical vehicle with shorter charging time and longer driving time, you're going to have to have a good bit more current. Not an insane amount, mind you, but a good bit more.

People drive a lot, that's part of the problem. People drive a whole lot.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Nope, it isn't a problem, it is a reality of life unless you want to live like a medival goat herder.

Reply to
jimp

That's why I included the 100 mile range Nissan Leaf. It uses more juice.

Uh, no. Maybe you do. Don't buy an electric. I've read the average commute is 32 miles round trip.

Except when I go on vacation and maybe 3 times a year for family events, I haven't driven more than 24 miles in a day for years. I go across the county line every few weeks to get cigarettes. That's the 24 mile round trip. My commute and my wife's commute have both been 12 miles round trip since 1993. For a couple years in there mine was 24 miles round trip, and for another couple years it was 30 miles round trip.

My long distance vacation driving is 6 days total there and back. So there's no more than 10 days a year where I exceed 24 miles. That leaves 355 days where I don't need an IC engine. Not counting my IC lawnmower and weedwhacker.

40 miles a day may seem a small distance to you, but for millions that's more than they drive. The big problem is the price of the car, not the range. I don't see an electric in my future.

I've thought of keeping just tiny gas-miser cars at home for local driving and renting a road car when I go on vacation. If I flew on airplanes that's what I'd do. But I don't fly, so I need a road car.

You saying what you said is like me saying I a SUV or a pickup is useless because they don't suit me. There's plenty of market for them and they'll be plenty for "short-range" electrics.

Longest commute I ever had was 75 miles round trip for a couple years back in 1980-82. Think gas was about 60-70 cents then and I drove a Ford pickup with a 352. Long time ago. I got smart and bought a house near where I expected to work, and not far from the train station if I had to work down town. Cost me more for the house, but haven't had a long commute since. Plenty who did the same but have more money than me will buy those electrics just for their commute and grocery-getting. Just my opinion, but we'll know for sure in a few years.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

Some parts of America, that grid is already strung out pretty tight. cuhulin

Reply to
cuhulin

Very. Do you drive more than 40 miles to work?

Reply to
Cwatters

Putting aside the toy car looks, this one from 2004 is interesting...

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Independantly tested on an approved track it manages 70mph top speed and 204 mile range ...

Extra urban cycle: 255 km/156 miles Urban cycle: 326 km/ 204 miles Urban cycle power consumption: 0.121 kWh/km Extra urban cycle power consumption: 0.155 kwh/km Maximum speed measured during tests: 114 kmh/71 mph Useable energy stored in batteries: 39.6 kWh Motor: Advanced DC with Regenerative Braking

Quote "I built this prototype for less than 6000"

That's about $9,000.

Reply to
Cwatters

Yes, It's VERY common once you get out of the city. The wife drives 34 miles one way to her job. Going to be a long walk home...

Electric vehicles don't make any sense outside of very limited uses. Until they get to a range of 200-300 miles per charge and a recharge time of less than 10 minutes they won't be practical for 90% of the country. Even then they still will produce as much crap as a conventional vehicle because the power to charge them has to come from somewhere. Solar generation produces a LOT of nasty waste while making the cells, Wind gets blocked by people who don't want the units near them or in their vision, Coal,Nat.Gas, Oil fired plants just transfer the smog to other areas. Nobody will even consider nuke plants even though they are the best way to make power.

Reply to
Steve W.

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