Lincoln vs Cadillac

This has been true, but I think the Escalade and the CTS have both been doing a lot to turn Cadillac's name around.

--scott

Troll

Well...the Cadillac Northstar engine is a masterpiece...and even the Corvette does not have a comparable engine.

The rest of Cadillac is mostly a willingness to develop or offer or include features. There's electronic damping, optional direct-fuel-injection, power seats, heated seats, and so on. Actually the paint on a 10 year Cadillac looks very good...

And I think that the Lincoln Towncar has a longer wheelbase than the Crown Victoria...

Now the Lincoln LS V-8 may have been a masterpiece...and actually it was based on a Jaguar. (To figure out which Jaguar just match up the wheelbases.) But Lincoln didn't say "here's our version of a Jaguar" they said "compare this car to the BMW 5 Series"...and no one was interested at the LS price...and that after a few years.

And the current Lincoln mid-size car is based on the Ford Fusion which is itself based on the Mazda 6...

Only if you ignore the Northstar's tendency to pull the head bolt threads, pull the main cap bolt threads, and develop case leaks.

Since the engine is built in a Ford factory, don't you think it would be more correct to say Jaguar is using a Ford engine? I suppose it was mostly a Jaguar design, but since Ford owned Jaguar at the time, is there a difference? And when Ford sold Jaguar, they kept the engine factory and now supply the engines to Jaguar.

Let's see, Lincoln sold the LS for six years and sold over 210,000 of them in the US. This is not so much different that BMW 5 Series Sales.

Ed

This is true. BUT, after developing the Northstar technology, GM has been very, very slow and putting it into the rest of their line. They come out with a product that is a clear advancement and then they don't put it into cars where it can do the most good.

Yes, it's a Chevy with upgrades. And there is nothing wrong with that.

What's sad is that BMW has now bloated the 5-series up so that it's as big as a Lincoln LS....

--scott

Talk to the folks who have to work on those Northstar engines to get the low down. They are a PIA to work on and have a fair share of unresolved problems as well.

A Lincoln LS big???? Compared to what? A Town Car is big. An LS is mediumed sized. Even when introduced the Lincoln LS and BMW 528 were fairly close in size. And the BMW has not really gotten much bigger.

2000 Lincoln LS V8 Curb weight 3,692 lbs. Exterior length 193.9" Exterior body width 73.2" Exterior height 56.1" Wheelbase 114.5" Front tread 60.5" Rear tread 60.8" 2000 BMW 528 Curb weight 3,495 lbs. Exterior length 188.0" Exterior body width 70.9" Exterior height 56.7" Wheelbase 111.4" Front tread 59.5" Rear tread 59.6" 2010 BMW 535 Curb weight 3,660 lbs. Exterior length 191.1" Exterior body width 72.7" Exterior height 57.8" Wheelbase 113.7" Front tread 61.3" Rear tread 62.2"

Ed

The Northstar is EXTREMELY compact for the amount of power it produces, and in fact that was pretty much the whole driving force of its design. When you get a good one its quiet, unobtrusive, and provides a smooth rush of power. BUT- its a maintenance nightmare, pretty much un-rebuildable, and has a small collection of chronic problems that have never been fully sorted out (leaking oil and coolant through porous block castings, and having head bolts pull out of the block material). I for one don't care to own a vehicle that requires you to remove the whole intake system just to replace the starter.

On the other hand, the current Gen IV smallblock v8 used in the Corvette is actually the top-of-the-line engine offered in the performance oriented V-series Cadillacs- positioned ABOVE the Northstar in the product line. The 6.2L supercharged smallblock pushrod V8 produces 556 HP, compared to the Northstar's 320. Even normally aspirated in the Escalade, the 6.2L pushrod smallblock puts out 403 HP- 83 more than the most powerful Northstar version.

So you're right. The Corvette engine isn't comparable. Its decidedly superior.

I would say that the whole Northstar engine program is pretty much a failure. It looked fantastic on paper when it appeared in the early 90s, but hell, it hasn't progressed very far at all since then and has had more than its share of chronic problems. I'd still own one, but I sure wouldn't think I was getting GM's best any longer.

On the other hand, In 1992 the run-of-the-mill Chevrolet v8 was a cheap-to-produce mediocre engine that while easy to maintain and capable of doing whatever was asked of it was in many ways inferior to its departed Oldsmobile equivalent, let alone Chrysler and Ford smallblocks. Fast forward to 2009 and the Chevy pushrod v8 is an absolutely, reliable, lightweight modern engine family that shares nothing whatsoever with the old smallblock Chevy except the spacing of the cylinder bores. AND it completely passed the Northstar in total power and in fuel efficiency too.

This is true, and SOME of the unresolved problems are relatively simple issues to fix with minor design changes. But it's as if GM has decided that development stops when the design ships.

--scott

Making it a callidaC, huh, Scott? Seriously, I think the newer Cadillac's are better cars than they were a few years ago.

ESCALADE???

Cadillac used to mean a top of the line American car.

Now it means whatever trendy, plastic-clad crap GM can pawn off onto people with too much money and too little brains, thanks to the Escalade. Being the vehicle of choice of upwardly mobile drug dealers and nouveau riche rappers is undoubtedly NOT the image GM would really prefer to have for its "premium" brand.

nate

I don't know, the whole nouveau riche rapper culture has a big following, and they buy cars. I don't personally like the culture or the car either, but you have to admit that it sells. Right now, that's more than GM can say about most of their other lines.

I think the Escalade definitely has turned the Cadillac name around among the younger and hipper crowd. Before it became popular, they thought of the Cadillac as a car that elderly guys drove at 45 mph in the left lane with the turn signals going on for miles. That's no longer the impression the name gives any more, and they need to carry that ball and run with it.

--scott

Eventually I believe people will figure out that an Escalade is simply a Yukon with some ugly bodywork and cheap leather seats, and adjust their purchases accordingly...

nate

Of course. That's why Cadillac needs to have the Next Best Thing under development right now, so that when this happens they'll have something else to sell.

If they don't have something else to sell when the Escalade fails in that market, they are going to lose the momentum and then it'll take years to get it back again. Which is what happened to Cadillac years earlier.

--scott

Also, I think calling that plastic-coated hide "leather" is really pushing it....

While not calling it "brilliant" the CTS (or whatever it's called) that comes with the 'Vette motor and 90% of a 'Vette's suspension is a good move.

Put the premium engineering into a premium priced car.

Now, they gotta put the premium engineering into a cheap car to save themselves.

The Malibu is a start, but it has to get way more "Accord" to satisfy (IOW not feel as cheap as it is).

Mid-Size GM sedans are total junk as is the (now dead) Trailblazer. Expensive for what you get and engineered to be junk in 5 years (just as you pay it off).

Ahh, for the days when cars were much simpler, and more reliable. cuhulin