Odd new misbehavior - need ideas ASAP, PLEASE!

The vehicle: 1982 Mazda 626 - 2.0l I4, SOHC, *QUASI-ELECTRONIC* ignition (basically a traditional ignition system with "solid state points") *NO* computer of any kind in this vehicle, unless you count the radio/CD/MP3 player in the dashboard - purely mechanical/thermal/vacuum controlled emission control system. Distributor uses mechanical (centrifical force from moving weights) and vacuum for advance control.

The misbehavior: Stumbling, lurching, and loss of power (occasionally severe enough to cause a stall) under load/acceleration. Particularly noticable if I hit the gas hard with the tach showing roughly 2300-2700 RPM while climbing a slope, or trying to accelerate while moving at a speed that's near the "top end" for the gear I'm in. This is particularly bad, since according to both book and experience, the "sweet spot" in the power band for this engine is in the 2400-2600 RPM range, depending on whether you want to talk about torque or "raw horsepower" output.

I needed to go in and pull the distributor today as part of a "clean up some oil leaks" campaign - As I suspected, the O-ring on the distributor shaft and the valve-cover gasket were shot. Before putting things back together, I went through thte distributor carefuly - weights are free and cause the rotor plate to move as expected, springs are strong and operating, and applying vacuum to the fitting for the vac. advance rotates the rotor plate as expected. As part of my "post-distributor removal drill", once everything was back together, I hooked up the timing light to make sure I hadn't screwed things up. This turned me on to a new, not previously directly detected symptom...

Hooking the inductive pickup of the timing light on the #1 plug wire with the engine idling gives me normal flash from the timing light, but only at idle. When I "wind it up", I start seeing "dropouts" in the flashes from the timing light. Holding at high-ish revs (estimated

2500-3000 RPM) produces periods of anywhere from a fairly obvious "one lonely miss" to multiple seconds with nothing at all from the timing light until the throttle is released and the engine "winds back down" toward idle. Once back at idle, steady flashes at what looks to be a perfectly reasonable rate from the timing light.

Move the pickup from #1 to any other plug wire, and the timing light flashes (obviously it's "out of time" since it's on the wrong plug, but the flashing is constant and regular in relation to engine speed) steadily through all speed variations. Which seems to me like a pretty good "rulling out" of the timing light itself malfunctioning.

It follows logically that the "dropouts" I'm seeing in the timing-light flash are indicating that #1 isn't firing for some reason. Inspection of cap and rotor shows nothing unusual about either the tip of the rotor, the center contact, or the #1 post. Pulling the #1 plug shows nothing of any particular interest - Gap is good, and the deposits on that plug are the same thin layer of powdery, pale tan, dry looking "dust-cake" that the other three show. Plugs, wires, cap, and rotor have somewhere in the neighborhood of 5K miles on them since being installed. No visible cracks or other problems with the wires. Coil-to-centerpost wire likewise looks fine.

I'm stumped - As far as I can figure out from eyeballing wiring diagrams, there's nothing different about #1 that should let it "misbehave" without also causing 2, 3, and 4 to be having trouble - They all fire from the same coil, with the only distinction between them being the moment when the spark is supposed to happen.

So, if this car were to show up showing these symptoms, what would *YOU* be looking at as the source of the trouble?

Reply to
Don Bruder
Loading thread data ...

I would go after the fuel filter first....

The dropout in the light is really sneaky can be caused by too lean a mix on #1 which is at the end of the intake manifold.

The first time that happened to me we went nuts swapping in known good parts until as a last resort we put a new gas filter on it. Just because it was the only thing left to do if I remember right. LOL!

I have also seen the light drop out on 3 out of 6 cylinders when an idle tube got plugged on a 2 bbl

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
Reply to
Mike Romain

Can I assume this vehicle has a carb... and you have checked the accelerator pump operation?

Professor

formatting link

Reply to
Professor

Did that - 2 weeks and maybe 500 miles ago. It was the VERY first thing I looked at when the problem started showing up, since the initial symptoms were much like the time the beast actually WAS starving due to a plugged filter. No improvement from putting in a new one. The stumbling has slowly but steadily gotten worse since then - It started as an occasional "What the heck was that I just felt? Or did I even really feel it?" event and has now progressed to the point of "annoying as hell". If whatever this problem is keeps up for much longer, at this rate, it's going to sideline the car in a couple of weeks, I'd guesstimate.

One word: "????????"

My understanding of electricity and electronics (I may not be an industry-recognized expert, but I doubt anyone who knows me would even try to consider it bragging when I say I'm also a *LONG* ways from being an electrical dummy) doesn't give me any hint how the fuel mix going lean could affect a spark plug firing or not firing. Even if it's "plain air", it should still get the juice and turn it into a spark. The only way I can think of for that type of failure would be to have the spark plug submerged in raw gas, and even then, the problem should manifest as a flash of the timing light without an actual spark being visible at the plug gap. What I'm seeing (no flashes from the timing light, no spark at the plug that's hanging in plain air) *SEEMS* to a lack of any juice being sent to the plug in the first place.

Any hints on the how/why of what you're saying? Any simple way to rule it out?

FWIW: After posting the original message, I went back out to the garage and did some dinking around. Found out that pulling the #1 plug out and grounding it against the valve cover, then starting the engine (gawd, but an open cylinder on a running engine sure is noisy, aint it? :) ) shows a nice fat spark at idle. Spark and flash both "go away" as a set when I rev it up.

Reply to
Don Bruder

Yes, and yes. Mashing the pedal or equivalent results in a nice little stream of gas from the output of the accelerator pump spitting down the throat of the carb and splattering on the throttle plate before being sucked out of sight, just like it should.

Reply to
Don Bruder

It is a quirk with induction timing lights. The spark has to be strong or the current won't set off the light pickup.

I don't know if your test ruled out the light quirk or not, but suspect it did. I would try it with a different plug, say #4 and see what happens....

I then would be thinking a bad wire.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Aug./05
formatting link
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Reply to
Mike Romain

Carb, you'rre probably icing it up, it the heat stove from the exhaust manifold still hooked up??

SteveL

Reply to
pakeha

Yep. As annoying as the damned thing is, it's still there.

Reply to
Don Bruder

That's what I'm thinking now - Just got back in from playing with the beast some more, and it acts like the wire may be having intermittent problems - using a stick to wiggle it around will re-create the "no flash/no spark" syndrome. I've "cobbled" it for tonight/this weekend by using one of the spares (The sets I buy when I'm swapping wires always come with two extra-extra long wires - I'm betting they sell the same set for 6 cylinder vehicles) from the latest set - Too much fun, trying to figure out a way to keep a nearly 2 foot long wire from getting into places where it doesn't belong when it's being used in place of a wire that doesn't actually NEED more than about 8 inches to bridge the distance!

Hopefully, this has fixed it... I'll find out tonight when I run the route, I guess.

Reply to
Don Bruder

Don Bruder wrote in news:437508b4$0$54787 $ snipped-for-privacy@news.sonic.net:

according

distributor

my 2cents........if i were working at home w/out the scope........if all3 cyls had a good spark with timing light test and #1 didnt i would believe the test was valid......then i would mark #1 plug and wire very visibly (as not to lose them in the shuffling) and start swapping wires from good to bad cyl and then plugs just to see if i could move the problem........if i couldnt move the problem to another cyl thru all that i would take another very good look at dist. particularly shaft bearing, driven gear backlash and condition, and reluctor condition and gap from pickup on all 4 spokes.........just my 2cents...........kjun

Reply to
KjunRaven

I hate top posters but heck with it.

How many miles?

Std or auto?

How many miles on the ign wires? I've seen them go bad in only 20k miles.

Reply to
BakedandFried

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.