oil and knock from rocker arms/lifters

have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from either the rockers arms/lifters/springs
when using a 20W-50 castrol gtx type oil, until engine is really warm, I can hear the sound when I use a 0W-30 synthetic type oil, the noise disappears pretty quickly, before engine is completerly warm (that's not a typo as in 10W-30 but it's really a zero-W-30 oil)
have planned on replacing the lifters, or at least the offending lifter in case I find that it's just one that is a little out of spec.
does the type of oil really make that much of a difference, it is after all just a *splash* type lubrication in that location?
Reply to
Morris
What kind of engine is this, and what does the mfgr. spec for oil in the temperature range that you're experiencing? sounds like the engine is happier with the lighter weight oil, and assuming that you don't have any oil pressure issue with the lighter oil I would just keep on using it and be happy.
Sounds to me like with the heavier oil you're not getting enough flow to the head, so the lighter oil is probably offering you better protection assuming that the OP stays up where it should be. With most engines, there's really not much of a downside to using a quality, lighter-weight oil if your pressure remains within spec. You'll find the engine easier to start when cold and may even notice a very small increase in fuel economy.
good luck
nate
Reply to
N8N
That happens to me when I use Fram oil filters. They appear to drain out overnight so the valves start up dry and noisy. As the oil gets there the noise goes away.
Thinner oil would get there faster than that thick stuff.
If you really had lifter issues, the thicker oil should help so I think the thicker oil is the problem by not getting to the lifters fast enough when cold.
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
formatting link
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Reply to
Mike Romain

I agree with Mike and Nate. Oil does make a difference, especially if you have other circumstances, like an oil pump which is marginal, a filter which is not holding the oil, etc.
I have seen a number of oil pumps which just dont put up as much pressure as the manufacturer would be happy with.
Reply to
<HLS

If you had a properly working engine, it would take only a second or maybe a couple of seconds at the most for the oil to get to the lifters and quiet them down when the oil filter is completely empty (like when you install a new filter that is full of air).
-jim
Reply to
jim
My old '67 Dart would take about 7 seconds to fill an empty oil filter from a cold start, which seemed like way too long. Then I switched to Wix and it quieted down almost immediately.
I agree, Frams suck, but based on the OP's description I don't think that's the problem in this case.
nate
Reply to
N8N
You don't say what type of engine, but most engines are definitely NOT just "splash" lubricated around the lifters, especially those with hydraulic lifters.
And IMO, 20-50 is stupid-heavy oil for an engine in good shape. Even in the desert southwest, I never use anything heavier than 10w30. Heavy oil may raise the oil pressure on the gauge and give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling, but it reduces oil FLOW rate substantially. I'd rather have good oil flow at 3 psi than poor oil flow at 50 psi.
Reply to
Steve

I agree -that's way too long. But I remember installing fram filters on dodge darts and if the engine was good it took about a second for the engine oil light to go out and the engine quieted down at the same instant.
I agree again. The filter media is denser in a fram. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing depends on the condition of your engine and oil pump.
Note - filling an empty filter the first time has nothing to do with the drain back valve.
-jim
Reply to
jim
No you are wrong. It only happens with Fram filters and only overnight if you bothered to actually read what I posted..
Mike > > >> Thinner oil would get there faster than that thick stuff. >> >> If you really had lifter issues, the thicker oil should help so I think >> the thicker oil is the problem by not getting to the lifters fast enough >> when cold. >> >> Mike >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! >> Jan/06
formatting link
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)> >
Reply to
Mike Romain

I read what you posted MORON. I was explaining what it should be like not what your POS engine is like.
-jim
Reply to
jim
Mike Romain wrote in news:45da1725$0$11093$ snipped-for-privacy@unlimited.newshosting.com:
The Web site BobIsTheOilGuy.com did flow tests on a bunch of filters some time ago. FRAM filters had the highest flow-through rate, which would lead me to believe the filter media was *less* dense than the others.
When I used to buy FRAM-branded filters I noticed if you held a freshly- removed filter open-end up, the center pipe would slowly fill with oil from the dirty side of the media, and would continue to do so until the filter was empty (so long as you kept dumping it out so it could fill again). This does not happen with Honda-branded FRAM-built filters sold by Honda Canada.
To me it seems logical that a FRAM-branded filter would eventually drain to at least 60% empty when left overnight, even if the anti-drainback valve was sealing well.
Reply to
Tegger
It might or might not be. Believe it or not, different cars or trucks with different engines USE DIFFERENT TYPES OF LIFTERS!
It is a waste of electrons to post questions like this without providing make, model and engine type.
Don
formatting link

Reply to
Don
If your '67 Dart was a slant six it did NOT have hydraulic lifters. There was never a slant six made with hydraulic lash adjustment. You were hearing something other than valvetrain noise. FWIW those motors took about a minute to pump oil to the rocker arm shafts after an oil and filter change. I have watched this many times. The mains and rods will get oil in a few seconds. The main and rod bearings WILL make noise at high mileage which will go away once the crankshaft has oil pressure.
How the hell can we know? He has told us NOTHING about the application. Doesn't even have hydraulic lifters for all we know. Could have solid lifters, no lifters (true overhead cam) or just about anything. For all we know he's hearing a marginal rod knock or a timing chain rattle until the oil pressure comes up.
Don
formatting link

Reply to
Don

My wild guess considering the meager information supplied is piston slap. Hydraulic lifters (on cars that have them) in good condition should hold their oil a long time. At any rate, if they do collapse it is due to valve spring load and not the oil filter.
-jim
Reply to
jim

Don't know anything about Bob, but tests I've seen comparing filters rate Fram to be significantly better at removing the tiniest particles in oil compared to other popular filters like Wix. That suggests a denser medium. The resistance to flow depends on the viscosity of the oil and how clean the filter media is (or how dirty the oil was). I don't know how anyone could come up with a meaningful flow test given the variables involved.
My take on the Fram controversy is this: After using a filter like Wix for 100K or more miles someone will then switch to a Fram and experience oil pressure problems. The cause is an accumulation of very fine particles in the engine that load up in the Fram filter. In general millions of Fram filters installed on new engines or engines that have had Fram filters all their life do not develop the same oil pressure problems.
You are describing oil flow from the dirty side of the filter to the clean side. That is the direction it is supposed to flow. I don't know if you just made that all up or what your point is, but there is no valve or other normal mechanism that I know of that is supposed to prevent that from happening.
Based on what?
-jim
Reply to
jim
jim wrote in news:1171975909 snipped-for-privacy@sp6iad.superfeed.net:
Citation please? I'd love to see that.
I once gave Daniel J. Stern a hard time about FRAM (for which I'm sure he'd hate me forever if he could remember who I was), but after some considerable thought and investigation have concluded that he was right in condemning FRAM's efficacy.
And BobIsTheOilGuy's results showed the exact opposite. The test used to be listed in the Forums but I can't find it just now, so you'll have to search a bit.
And media porosity...
And so said the Bob guy. He said *precisely* that regarding his own tests.
Oil pressure is primarily a function of crankshaft/connecting rod bearing clearances. These are not affected by particulates except that particulates accelerate bearing wear and thus eventually decrease pressure.
My point was that this steady pressureless flow occurred only with FRAM filters (and other very cheap brands). Honda-branded filters require pressure to make the oil flow. In fact, Toyota-branded filters also will not leak oil past the media in the absence of pressure. I am told Toyota filters are made by Filtech.
Therefore, it is likely that a FRAM filter would take longer to allow your engine to pressurize its oil, since it would have to fill a partially-empty filter can before oil could flow to the engine.
What I just said. See above.
Reply to
Tegger

Well it wasn't Bob doing tests in his backyard so I suppose they wouldn't be valid anyway?
So if the test is not meaningful it is meaningless.
No wrong. If you have a oil filter plugged with fine particles that is the primary function that affects oil pressure.
So your claim is that the filter media acts like a check valve in all filters but Fram?
-jim
Reply to
jim
jim wrote in news:1172019025 snipped-for-privacy@sp6iad.superfeed.net:
But is it not standard practice these days to change the oil and filter at the same time? And if so, would that not drain out most of the particulates you mention before they had a chance to plug a new filter?
So I claim to have personally observed, yes, but not in "all filters but FRAM", just the cheap filters I've personally had experience with.
Reply to
Tegger

I said they accumulate inside the engine. You don't think there are any engines out there that have more accumulated particles than what the oil can hold in suspension? And from what I can tell those are the very engines that have problems with Fram filters.
But your claim is the reason that people don't claim to have the oil pressure problems they claim they have with Frams is because the media in other filters effectively acts as a check valve preventing oil from draining back due to gravity. So why do they even bother with the anti drain back valve.
-jim
Reply to
jim
jim wrote in news:1172030938 snipped-for-privacy@sp6iad.superfeed.net:
You are aware oil filters have both an "in" and an "out"? The ADBV prevents the "in" from becoming an "out".
Only sufficiently dense medium will prevent the "out" from being an "out" even in the absence of pressure, which was my point.
Reply to
Tegger

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.