have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from either
the rockers arms/lifters/springs
when using a 20W-50 castrol gtx type oil, until engine is really warm, I can
hear the sound
when I use a 0W-30 synthetic type oil, the noise disappears pretty quickly,
before engine is completerly warm
(that's not a typo as in 10W-30 but it's really a zero-W-30 oil)
have planned on replacing the lifters, or at least the offending lifter in
case I find that it's just one that is a little out of spec.
does the type of oil really make that much of a difference, it is after all
just a *splash* type lubrication in that location?
What kind of engine is this, and what does the mfgr. spec for oil in
the temperature range that you're experiencing? sounds like the
engine is happier with the lighter weight oil, and assuming that you
don't have any oil pressure issue with the lighter oil I would just
keep on using it and be happy.
Sounds to me like with the heavier oil you're not getting enough flow
to the head, so the lighter oil is probably offering you better
protection assuming that the OP stays up where it should be. With
most engines, there's really not much of a downside to using a
quality, lighter-weight oil if your pressure remains within spec.
You'll find the engine easier to start when cold and may even notice a
very small increase in fuel economy.
That happens to me when I use Fram oil filters. They appear to drain
out overnight so the valves start up dry and noisy. As the oil gets
there the noise goes away.
Thinner oil would get there faster than that thick stuff.
If you really had lifter issues, the thicker oil should help so I think
the thicker oil is the problem by not getting to the lifters fast enough
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
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I agree with Mike and Nate. Oil does make a difference, especially if you
have other circumstances, like an oil pump which is marginal, a filter which
is not holding the oil, etc.
I have seen a number of oil pumps which just dont put up as much pressure
as the manufacturer would be happy with.
If you had a properly working engine, it would take only a second or
maybe a couple of seconds at the most for the oil to get to the lifters
and quiet them down when the oil filter is completely empty (like when
you install a new filter that is full of air).
My old '67 Dart would take about 7 seconds to fill an empty oil filter
from a cold start, which seemed like way too long. Then I switched to
Wix and it quieted down almost immediately.
I agree, Frams suck, but based on the OP's description I don't think
that's the problem in this case.
You don't say what type of engine, but most engines are definitely NOT
just "splash" lubricated around the lifters, especially those with
And IMO, 20-50 is stupid-heavy oil for an engine in good shape. Even in
the desert southwest, I never use anything heavier than 10w30. Heavy oil
may raise the oil pressure on the gauge and give you a nice warm fuzzy
feeling, but it reduces oil FLOW rate substantially. I'd rather have
good oil flow at 3 psi than poor oil flow at 50 psi.
I agree -that's way too long. But I remember installing fram filters on
dodge darts and if the engine was good it took about a second for the
engine oil light to go out and the engine quieted down at the same
I agree again. The filter media is denser in a fram. Whether that is a
good thing or a bad thing depends on the condition of your engine and
Note - filling an empty filter the first time has nothing to do with
the drain back valve.
No you are wrong. It only happens with Fram filters and only overnight
if you bothered to actually read what I posted..
>> Thinner oil would get there faster than that thick stuff.
>> If you really had lifter issues, the thicker oil should help so I think
>> the thicker oil is the problem by not getting to the lifters fast enough >> when cold.
>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)>
Mike Romain wrote in
The Web site BobIsTheOilGuy.com did flow tests on a bunch of filters some
time ago. FRAM filters had the highest flow-through rate, which would lead
me to believe the filter media was *less* dense than the others.
When I used to buy FRAM-branded filters I noticed if you held a freshly-
removed filter open-end up, the center pipe would slowly fill with oil from
the dirty side of the media, and would continue to do so until the filter
was empty (so long as you kept dumping it out so it could fill again). This
does not happen with Honda-branded FRAM-built filters sold by Honda Canada.
To me it seems logical that a FRAM-branded filter would eventually drain to
at least 60% empty when left overnight, even if the anti-drainback valve
was sealing well.
It might or might not be. Believe it or not, different cars or trucks
with different engines USE DIFFERENT TYPES OF LIFTERS!
It is a waste of electrons to post questions like this without
providing make, model and engine type.
If your '67 Dart was a slant six it did NOT have hydraulic lifters.
There was never a slant six made with hydraulic lash adjustment.
You were hearing something other than valvetrain noise. FWIW those
motors took about a minute to pump oil to the rocker arm shafts after
an oil and filter change. I have watched this many times. The mains
and rods will get oil in a few seconds. The main and rod bearings
WILL make noise at high mileage which will go away once the crankshaft
has oil pressure.
How the hell can we know? He has told us NOTHING about the
application. Doesn't even have hydraulic lifters for all we know.
Could have solid lifters, no lifters (true overhead cam) or just about
anything. For all we know he's hearing a marginal rod knock or a
timing chain rattle until the oil pressure comes up.
My wild guess considering the meager information supplied is piston
Hydraulic lifters (on cars that have them) in good condition should hold
their oil a long time. At any rate, if they do collapse it is due to
valve spring load and not the oil filter.
Don't know anything about Bob, but tests I've seen comparing filters
rate Fram to be significantly better at removing the tiniest particles
in oil compared to other popular filters like Wix. That suggests a
denser medium. The resistance to flow depends on the viscosity of the
oil and how clean the filter media is (or how dirty the oil was). I
don't know how anyone could come up with a meaningful flow test given
the variables involved.
My take on the Fram controversy is this: After using a filter like Wix
for 100K or more miles someone will then switch to a Fram and experience
oil pressure problems. The cause is an accumulation of very fine
particles in the engine that load up in the Fram filter. In general
millions of Fram filters installed on new engines or engines that have
had Fram filters all their life do not develop the same oil pressure
You are describing oil flow from the dirty side of the filter to the
clean side. That is the direction it is supposed to flow. I don't know
if you just made that all up or what your point is, but there is no
valve or other normal mechanism that I know of that is supposed to
prevent that from happening.
Based on what?
jim wrote in
Citation please? I'd love to see that.
I once gave Daniel J. Stern a hard time about FRAM (for which I'm sure
he'd hate me forever if he could remember who I was), but after some
considerable thought and investigation have concluded that he was right
in condemning FRAM's efficacy.
And BobIsTheOilGuy's results showed the exact opposite. The test used to
be listed in the Forums but I can't find it just now, so you'll have to
search a bit.
And media porosity...
And so said the Bob guy. He said *precisely* that regarding his own
Oil pressure is primarily a function of crankshaft/connecting rod
bearing clearances. These are not affected by particulates except that
particulates accelerate bearing wear and thus eventually decrease
My point was that this steady pressureless flow occurred only with FRAM
filters (and other very cheap brands). Honda-branded filters require
pressure to make the oil flow. In fact, Toyota-branded filters also will
not leak oil past the media in the absence of pressure. I am told Toyota
filters are made by Filtech.
Therefore, it is likely that a FRAM filter would take longer to allow
your engine to pressurize its oil, since it would have to fill a
partially-empty filter can before oil could flow to the engine.
What I just said. See above.
Well it wasn't Bob doing tests in his backyard so I suppose they
wouldn't be valid anyway?
So if the test is not meaningful it is meaningless.
No wrong. If you have a oil filter plugged with fine particles that is
the primary function that affects oil pressure.
So your claim is that the filter media acts like a check valve in all
filters but Fram?
jim wrote in
But is it not standard practice these days to change the oil and filter at
the same time? And if so, would that not drain out most of the particulates
you mention before they had a chance to plug a new filter?
So I claim to have personally observed, yes, but not in "all filters but
FRAM", just the cheap filters I've personally had experience with.
I said they accumulate inside the engine. You don't think there are any
engines out there that have more accumulated particles than what the oil
can hold in suspension? And from what I can tell those are the very
engines that have problems with Fram filters.
But your claim is the reason that people don't claim to have the oil
pressure problems they claim they have with Frams is because the media
in other filters effectively acts as a check valve preventing oil from
draining back due to gravity. So why do they even bother with the anti
drain back valve.
jim wrote in
You are aware oil filters have both an "in" and an "out"? The ADBV prevents
the "in" from becoming an "out".
Only sufficiently dense medium will prevent the "out" from being an "out"
even in the absence of pressure, which was my point.