Oil life indicator

SAPS apparently stands for sulfated ash Potassium and sulfur. You haven't said which one of those is supposed to be the one that affects catalytic converters.

The oil companies that advertise that their products meet certain levels of SAPS are all promoting oils designed for diesels with Particulate Filters so i'm not getting what that has to do with catalytic converters in passenger cars.

The only explanation i can come up with for your statement is that you have gasoline engines confused with diesels.

You're guessing.

No, that is not what SAPS stands for.

I am fully aware of that. The worst offender in that regard just happens to be the one you got (guessed) wrong.

Horse s*it. SAPS levels are part of ILSAC approvals, ILSAC approvals are targeted at gasoline engines. i.e., GF-4 and the about to be implemented GF-5.

No Jim I do not have gasoline engines confused with diesels. But it is certain that you don't know what you're talking about.

But I could be wrong, maybe potassium and phosphorus are really the same thing.

I'll defer to our resident chemist for a ruling...

Yes I found that SAPS stands for Sulfated Ash Phosphorus Sulfur. I looked it up and should have copy and pasted the result instead of typing.

I don't recall hearing of SAPS before this thread. Which isn't surprising since everything you say is made up out of thin air. But I guess I should thank you for the update on the most recent internet folklore. This is not one I had heard before.

No that is incorrect. The G-4 standard says nothing at all about SAPS. Read it yourself:

But the part that still makes no sense in your original comment is you haven't explained why any of this is being brought up in the context of how often one changes oil. So what if there is something called SAPS? How does that make changing your oil at 3000 miles do more damage to a catalytic converter than changing at 7500 miles? Even if you meant to say phosphorus and not SAPS was doing the damage there is no evidence that changing oil more often increases the phosphorus going to the cat. In fact all the evidence points to the opposite being true.

Well either you are confused or you just like posting things that you know are made up.

SAPS is a grouping of 3 different oil specifications that affect the newest diesel engines that must meet the latest emission standard. It has never had anything to do with catalytic converters on gasoline engines. The limits for these

You had to look it up. Makes you a bit of a fraud, no?

But you shot your mouth off anyway.

You can wish in one hand and s*it in the other.

SAPS has been a concern WRT motor oil and catalyst/O2 sensor degradation since the early 90s.

IOWs, it wasn't in the JiffyLube quarterly newsletter.

Well, which is it? It says nothing about SAPS but it does contain specifications for sulfur and phosphorus. You truly are the south end of a northbound horse.

Did I single out sulfated ash? No, I did not. But you did. Nice grasp at desperation.

That would only apply to diesel powered vehicles right because a few posts ago you were vehemently claiming that it only effected diesel engines.

My god, how pathetic.

Because you say so? Why then does the new GF-5 rating contain a totally new test sequence for SAPS?

And you still haven't listed what you've had published that would compel me or anyone else to believe one word of anything you say.

Because SAPS contamination is directly tied to oil volatility which happens to be most problematic during the first few hundred miles after fresh oil is installed in an engine.

The best analogy I can think of for a girl like you is; it's like washing your hair too often. So, if you can further relate, it not only damages your curly little locks, it puts an increased load on the sewer and water system which I suspect in your case is probably a rain barrel next to the still and a sand pit next to the 68 Ford up on cinder blocks over yonder.

The fact that you are ill informed is not my problem.

I could post a number of sources and you would just make your usual claims to the contrary and then do you typical 180 and parrot something I've already said.

We will see...

I don't pay a whole lot of attention to diesel engines but it wouldn't surprise me if SAPS were just now becoming an issue with diesel engines because they now in recent years are being subject to tighter emissions regulations much like gasoline engines have been for the last 35 years.

This in itself does nothing to refute anything I have said nor does it support anything you've said but it does clearly point out how far out of the loop you are which as usual is the cause for your disagreements.

You probably shouldn't hang your hat on such brief reference searches. Latching onto the first tidbit that you discover simply proves that you are not versed in the subject in the least.

Go back to the ILSAC document that you listed, page 5, paragraph 3a titled Catalyst Compatibility. Why would catalyst compatibility be listed in a document strictly intended for gasoline motor oil if it wasn't a concern to begin with?

Very expensive repairs to which components?

Approved oils:

Oh I'm sorry was I supposed to disregard the misinformation in your post? What you said sounded fishy so I looked it up. And sure enough it turns out what you said was BS.

You are confused. SAPS is an acronym for 3 different chemicals. That acronym was introduced to cover new oil standards for diesel engines that have the new emission equipment. You are misusing the term and then blaming others for pointing out your statements are confused.

No the low phosphorus standard in GF-4 does not apply to diesel oil. Diesel oil is allowed more phosphorus than the GF-4 standard which is oil for gasoline engines. Even the new low SAPS diesel oil standards allows more phosphorus than the G-4 standard for gasoline engines. You are quite confused.

It does not contain any reference to SAPS at all. You need to stop misusing the terminology.

The GF-5 standard doesn't even exist yet and the people who are developing the standard do not contemplate making SAPS any part of the standard. SAPS is an acronym for part of The API standard for oil intended to be used in some diesel engines.

From what I have heard there may be an increase in the amount of phosphorus allowed in the oil for the GF-5 , but a new test will be added to make sure the phosphorus that is allowed doesn't get into the Cat. The problem is that some GF-4 oils meet the proposed new standard and some don't. As far as I know there is no way for a consumer to find out which oils currently meet the new standards.

I can't help it if you are misinformed. The standards are written in pretty plain english it doesn't take much competence to read and understand them.

No you are just quite confused. Oil volatility is itself a separate performance standard which has nothing whatsoever to do with SAPS. You continue to stubbornly misuse the terminology.

And the experiments done in the course of developing the testing sequences for GF-5 reveal that Phosphorus contamination is directly related to how long and hard the oil has been stressed in the engine. In other words, those experiments imply if you change the oil more often you will reduce the amount of phosphorus that gets to the Cat.

It has also been experimentally determined that the amount of phosphorus from oil that ends up in the exhaust is not really dependent on the amount of phosphorus content in the oil. They found that other components of the oil determine how much phosphorus is retained in the oil and how much is lost over time. It has also been determined that as the oil becomes older and more oxidized it tends to lose it's ability to retain phosphorus. These are general trends found based on experiments done on oils that are formulated according to the existing GF-4 minimum standard for gasoline powered passenger cars. The problem is that some oils that meet the current standards retain more phosphorus than others. So the current standard that was designed to protect the Cat has been found to be flawed. So some oils are poisoning Cats more than others regardless of how much phosphorus is in the oil. The new GF-5 standard is supposed to address that problem.

Well fortunately the standards for oil are not set based on your beliefs. If you believe something necessary to the proper functioning of an engine is being washed out of the engine by changing the oil too often then change your oil less often if you want. But that screwy belief has nothing to do with SAPS or the catalytic converter or the ILSAC performance specs.

Your problem is you own lack of information.

You could pretend you have sources when you don't. Or more likely - you are just misreading the sources.

SAPS has never been used by the lube oil industry to mean anything but a group of new limits on 3 chemicals for the new diesel oil standards designed to address problems created by the new diesel emission standards. There are oils that meet both the API diesel and gasoline standards so yes some oils people are putting in their cars may be low enough in SAPS to meet the API diesel standards but may not be low enough to meet the GF-4 standards. In other words they may have more

If some oil company advertises that their motor oil has low SAPS that is because they know that there are saps out in the world who will buy anything that has the latest buzzword attached to it. The fact is that the API diesel oil standard for SAPS has more phosphorus than the GF-4 standard does. So a oil that advertised low SAPS may put more phosphorus into the Cat than an oil that does not advertise low SAPS. The term SAPS has nothing to do with protecting catalytic convertors. There is no requirement that a GF-4 oil be low in SAPS.

Because you are confused that's why. You said catalyst compatibility has something to do with SAPS. It doesn't. Catalyst compatibility exists in the GF-4 standard. SAPS does not. Some GF-4 oils do not meet the low SAPS requirement for the latest diesel engines. That doesn't mean they are bad for the convertor it simply means you shouldn't use that oil in a heavy duty diesel engine made in the last 2 years.

The newly added on emission components. For instance Sulfated ash will ruin the particulate filters. That can be a $2000 replacement the heavy duty diesel engine owner will be doing over and over if they don't use a low SAPS oil.

You know, that's the thing about relying on Google for your expertise, it's date sensitive. Your searches naturally bring up the most recent articles which you then latch onto to try and prove a point.

Since concern about SAPS more recently applies to diesel emission components, that is the bulk of information found.

Remember, originally you thought SAPS meant sulfated ash, potassium and sulfur.

You know, since you're obviously the expert on this why don't you post some references so that we can all be enlightened?

I see - since your original claim that changing oil too often causes damage turned out to be bogus. you now want to turn it into a pissing contest about who heard of SAPS first.

All the valuable information you previously claimed existed has suddenly disappeared into some black hole somewhere and now nobody can see it? Oh sure that makes lots of sense.

No I originally thought it meant this:

In which case it could be very important to document your change interval and materials used. F.eks., anyone could SAY they changed when the indicator went red, but you have no proof - unless GM can query the electronics in your car - when this really happened. I like to keep a paper trail.

I don't see the value. I change my own oil. I write down when I change my oil (date and mileage), but I buy the oil and filters in bulk when they are on sale. Therefore there is no direct relationship between when the materials were purchased and when the oil was changed. I could go back and fake the documentation after the fact with ease (even the reciepts!).

Ed

Impossible.

Sure, just send me your credit card number to cover the research fees.

So far 100% of the statements you have made on the subject have been incorrect. But yet you think someone is going to pay you for more of the same????

Well, posting a bunch of unrelated stuff about how SAPS applies to diesel engines certainly proves that allegation.

Not.

And that compares to someone who expects it for free?

Maybe he'd pay you for your half-assed attempts.

'Zat make you feel all warm and fuzzy Jim?

I'm curious, who else besides Barbara Ehrenreich does your thinking for you?

The manufacturers of engine lubes and oil additives do not agree with you. They say that the SAPS limits that exist for motor oil are related to diesel engines. But that just proves you are confused. This is the statement you made that is false:

"Over enthusiastic oil changing can cause premature catalytic convertor failure."

SAPS limits applies to both gasoline engines and diesels;

The fact that you can't do a proper google search does not mean that I am confused. However, it does mean that you are pretty for out of touch.

No you were definitely confused long before I pointed it out. And you are still confused. The ACEA standards for SAPS are also driven by the requirements for diesel engines and not gasoline engines. If the new diesels didn't need "low SAPS" oil no one would give a damn about it.

Did you read the link you supplied. It says in the

"The chief concern over ash levels in oil is that in diesel-engined vehicles non-combustible ash deposits become trapped in the channels of diesel particulate filters."

This has never been an issue with sulfated Ash causing problems with gasoline cars.

The reason you are confused is because you cant read. The article says the opposite of what you think it does. The article does not say SAPS harm converters. What the article does say is that using the new "low SAPS" oils might end up being bad for catalytic converters on gasoline engines in the long run. The article says that there is no real world data available, so nobody knows what the long term consequences of using those low SAPS oil formulas are, but some researchers are beginning to suspect that using low SAPS oil is going to cause premature failure of converters on gasoline cars. This is because the stuff they are removing from the oil is now showing indications that it was protecting converters from getting loaded up with phosphorus.

The article said: "Increasing the ratio of alkaline earth metal to phosphorus decreased the quantity of phosphorus deposited on the catalyst."

To formulate low SAPS oil the lube makers are removing alkaline earth metals to reduce ash levels. That may turn out to be harmful to Cats in gasoline cars. So yes GM is probably "concerned" about SAPS. They are concerned that low SAPS oil may be bad for gasoline converters. This may mean that it is a bad idea to put oil with a API CJ-4 designation in a gasoline passenger car.

And another thing that we will probably start seeing more info on soon is that "low SAPS" oil may also be bad for the exhaust valves on gasoline engines. They have already found that using low "SAPS" oil on natural gas engines dramatically shortens the life of exhaust valves and it may have a similar but not as strong effect on gasoline engines.

Also here is what Shell oil says about SAPS.

In the 1990s, Shell was first to market with a ?low SAPS? engine oil, with lower levels of Sulfated Ash, Phosphorous and Sulfur. Using low SAPS oils can help to reduce diesel exhaust emissions, by protecting after-treatment devices.

SAPS is a marketing Buzzword. The word is never used as part of the technical specifications by the the oil licensing agencies. ILSAC, ACEA and the API do not use the word SAPS in their performance standards. The word is used in promotional literature and press releases to simplify the concepts for morons like you that can't understand the real chemical terminology. The technical literature does not use this word.

No that proves you are a moron.

What you are to dumb to realize is that oil formulated for low sulfated ash may be harmful to catalytic converters in gasoline engines. Many oils like the ACEA C class oils are formulated for both diesels and gasoline engines and that may present problems because the two types of engines have different chemical needs.

It is only a problem when the phosphorus gets to the converter. If it stays in the engine it does no harm to the converter. If you could read you would see that there is evidence that the oil the marketers are pushing as "low SAPS oil" can cause more phosphorus damage to converter than oil that is not being marketed as low SAPS.

How did that show I was wrong. You just keep bringing up one non-sequitur after another. The GF-5 oil is not going to be marketed as low SAPS oil.

If you look at the API specification on the oil bottles. You will see many of the oils that are being advertized as "low SAPS oils" have both API CJ-4 and API SM/SL designation. People are using those oils in their gasoline passenger cars.

No its only been a little more than 2 years since the CJ-4 oil started showing up on the shelves. And using that oil in a Natural gas engine has been found to be very harmful.

It may not be important to a moron like you but to someone who owns a natural gas engine might be interested.

What's been 15 years? You d "Over enthusiastic oil changing can cause premature catalytic convertor failure."

What the heck does all this babbling about SAPS got to do with that foolish statement?