> >
> >> > >>>
> >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ummmmm...no.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference between an alignment done with a driver's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth of weight
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the driver's seat and one done without will NOT change
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether or not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the stability warning lights come on or not. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Furthermore, what gives you the idea that cars record the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> times the stability augmentation systems have been
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> activated?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did a little checking and no current production vehicle
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeps a log of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when the stability systems have been activated.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay, I've been forever using "stability" loosely as an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all encompassing term
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for driver assist systems - lane keep, emergency braking,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self driving, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more that I can't think of right now. Those systems can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have issues if the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alignment is not done properly. Those weight procedures
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might make very little
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference, but it might be enough to push it past the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tipping point for error
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> codes, like when the alignment is in spec, but at the edge
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the specs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure where you're getting this claim: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Those systems can have issues if the alignment is not done
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> properly."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going to need some source for that, because (and don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take this
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poorly) it sounds like complete nonsense.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The cars have at minimum steering sensors and cameras. To
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simplify, if the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering sensor says the car is going straight, but it is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not going straight,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the car senses a fault. If any sensor does not agree with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other sensors, you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are going to get a trouble code.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're going pretty far afield here.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have show not only that they have sensors... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but that they also record the output of those sensors to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be review later.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And they just don't.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You misunderstand. The car is not going to throw a code on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> alignment rack,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will throw it while driving after the alignment. It is not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dependent on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recording the sensors. I have no idea if it has sensors
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> because i don't know
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what specific car we are talking about. What I do know is that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> whenever I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> heard about that type of strict procedure, it tended to be a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> car with all that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> driver assist stuff. For any car that doesn't have it, you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should obviously
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore what I said.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I don't misunderstand at all.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Your claim was that this code would be seen by the manufacturer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> used to deny a claim.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But cars don't store codes for stability systems. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Not for anti-lock braking.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Not for traction control.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Not for steering.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And very few (if any) cars HAVE cameras.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I want to say, huh? But now I smell trolling.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Nope.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I refer you to your earlier statement:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 'The other more important one is that with the driver assist tech in
> >>>>>>>>>>> cars today, you need to get everything exactly right to minimize
> >>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>> pesky stability warning lights. If they come on, the dealer can play
> >>>>>>>>>>> gotcha and say the alignment was not properly done. Then you pay.
> >>>>>>>>>>> And
> >>>>>>>>>>> it's a lot.'
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> And it's simply not so.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Google is your friend. I'm not your research assistant. > >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> How is that even responsive?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You claimed that "the dealer" could discover that an "alignment was
> >>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>> properly done" based on "stability warning lights".
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> And it JUST ISN'T SO, dude.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You clearly know very little about auto repair, and the same about
> >>>>>>>> reading the
> >>>>>>>> written word. If you take your car in for a warning light, many
> >>>>>>>> things can
> >>>>>>>> cause that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Except the indicators for stability systems are NOT "warning lights". > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Straight outta Lewis Carroll.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If the dealer follows the diagnosis to an improper alignment, that
> >>>>>>>> is only one of the original possibilities. There is no trouble code
> >>>>>>>> for an
> >>>>>>>> improper alignment. Did you stop learning about cars in 1975? Why
> >>>>>>>> don't you
> >>>>>>>> start with Googling "do cars store antilock brake codes?" And then
> >>>>>>>> go down
> >>>>>>>> your list and ask the same about the rest of your list. And then you
> >>>>>>>> can come
> >>>>>>>> back and say, "oops", or you can just get ignored going forward.
> >>>>>>>> It's time for
> >>>>>>>> me to sleep now.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> They store codes when the ABS system has a FAILURE...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Uh, if you look up a bit on this page, you can see that you said cars
> >>>>>> "don't
> >>>>>> store codes" for a list of things, including ABS. Did you change your
> >>>>>> mind?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ...NOT when you simply brake hard enough that you cause the ABS to
> >>>>>>> activate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> An intelligent person always considers the possibility that he is
> >>>>>> wrong. So
> >>>>>> you either think you know everything when the polar opposite is true,
> >>>>>> or you
> >>>>>> are a troll. You could have Googled all of this and found that
> >>>>>> everything you
> >>>>>> have said is wrong, but you didn't. I guess I'll be moving on. > >>>>>
> >>>>> Wow.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There is so much about this you don't understand it's hard to know where
> >>>>> to begin.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Your thesis was (apparently) that if you got a fault code (which you
> >>>>> didn't articulate very well) that involved one of the vehicles
> >>>>> "stability systems" that a minor variance in the vehicles alignment
> >>>>> might result in the dealer denying coverage for the problem. > >>>>>
> >>>>> And that's bullshit for some many reasons.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But the biggest one is that you don't understand how minor the variance
> >>>>> from ideal alignment no loading the car with the recommended weights
> >>>>> would be...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ...when compared to the tolerances that are permitted in the alignment
> >>>>> value.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My 2012 BMW 135i weighs 3,373 lb with about a 52%/48% F/R weight
> >>>>> distribution. Assuming the position of the driver's centre of gravity is
> >>>>> approximately at 48% of the wheelbase behind the front axle, then my
> >>>>> weigh (about 195 lb) will be divided the same way between front and rear
> >>>>> as the car's own distribution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So the empty weight on the front example empty would be 1,754 lb, and
> >>>>> with the driver, 1,855 lb. That's an increase of 5%.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So assuming a linear wheel rate, that would decrease the ride height by
> >>>>> about 5%.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The ground clearance of the 135i is about 4". So adding the driver will
> >>>>> change that by about 0.2"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How much do you think the front tire camber changes with 0.2" of bounce
> >>>>> travel? Answer: almost zero. To be specific, the camber change per inch
> >>>>> is about 0.6 degrees, so the camber change would be 0.12°. > >>>>>
> >>>>> The alignment spec for a 2012 BMW 135i's front wheel camber has an
> >>>>> acceptable range of +0.2° to -0.5°
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So assuming you even COULD set the camber to the minimum value of -0.5°,
> >>>>> when the driver drops into the seat, you'd increase by only a small
> >>>>> fraction.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Caster: not affected materially by the driver's weight.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Toe: not affected.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Your whole thesis...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ...is bullshit.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Shocking.
> >>>>
> >>>> I provide quantitative analysis of the issue you THOUGHT you understood... > >>>>
> >>>> ...and you have nothing to say.
> >>>
> >>> Everyone knows different things. No one knows everything, although you believe
> >>> you do. What I have to say is based on not only master tech certs in ASE and
> >>> all the GM lines, but also spending decades working in service departments of
> >>> new car dealers, where I had - and used - direct access to the factory reps,
> >>> engineers, and tech support. I know what they do on warranty claims, and
> >>> plenty of it is absurd. I was trying to tell everyone how they think, and how
> >>> they justify their positions. I would never bother putting weights in my own
> >>> car to align it. I don't need all the tech spew above to know it would change
> >>> nothing at all for my purposes. And yes, some forms of misalignment can set a
> >>> code and warning light, in spite of your ridicule. Just look it up if you
> >>> don't believe me. And again, if the car doesn't have all those new driver
> >>> assist features, then of course it won't set a code. Do I really have to tell
> >>> you that? Of course I do, because you simply cannot accept that you might be
> >>> wrong about your stupid little arguments over nothing at all. You would argue
> >>> that a misfire won't set a CEL, and then tell me that you drive a 55 Chevy.
> >>> And the only reason I bother with this is that I have this enjoyment from
> >>> making fun of ridiculous people.
> >>
> >> And yet you don't address a single factual point I just made... > >>
> >> You say "look it up"...
> >>
> >> ...but won't provide a source.
> >>
> >> Illuminating.
> >
> > Because I am not your research assistant. I am not your trained monkey. I
> > guess you don't use Google because you know everything it knows, right? LIke I
> > said, people like you never learn anything. Answer one question. Have you ever
> > said the words, "I didn't know that"?
>
> Plenty of times.
>
> It's just that you haven't said anything that I don't know that's > actually factual.
>
> YOU make claims: YOU provide the sources to back them up, Sunshine.
And keep it to your petrolhead NG, TIA.