97 Avalon - Transmission failure - Caused by negligence of Service shop or sudden part failure? Advice needed ASAP.

Hi. This is mainly addressed to the line mechanics in the group, though of course I will welcome constructive opinions from anyone.

I'm looking for advice on the best way to approache the scenario I'll describe below to be fair and at the same time try to gain the best outcome.

I have a 97 Avalon that I bought used in 2000 with about 63k miles. The car now has about 112k miles on it. Since I bought the car I've taken meticulous care of it, doing all scheduled maint. ahead of schedule. I have had the trans flushed (not drained and filled) approx every 18 months.

About a month ago I took the car into the dealer to have it checked out as I planned on driving it from NJ to OH this week for a family reunion. On Sunday the check engine light came on (for the first time ever). I was about 10 miles from my house, so I pulled over and checked all the fluids. Everything was full and clean (oil, power steering, transmission, coolant, brakes).

On Monday I took the car in for a previously scheduled appointment at a car audio dealer for a refit of all new speakers and amplifiers. This process was not done in time to get the car into a Toyota dealer on Monday. During the service the battery was disconnected and the check light went out. However, after driving for about 2 miles it came back on.

The first thing on Tuesday I had the car at the Toyota dealer. They said the car needed a new (rebuilt) transmission (as well as a few other things that I doubt - such as a valve cover and plenum gasket that they had replaced only 20 months ago and show no signs of leakage). I took the car to AMCOO for a 2nd opinion.

AMCOO had the car for about 5 hours before telling me that they didn't think there was anything wrong with the transmission - the owner said it shifted like a dream. He said the check code seemed to be an electrical abberation. He explained the electrical system is a computer and the battery was putting out less than 12 volts and the alternator was barely charging it at all. He said both needed to be replaced. He tried to get the alternator Tuesday, but couldn't locate one in northern NJ and had to get one from Brooklyn NY, and the delivery truck got stuck in traffic. It got delivered and installed early this morning (Wed). They then flushed the transmission (as part of their new pay once get it flushed every year program). He said they then tested all of the gears under load for about 15 minutes, then road tested it. They called me, I picked it up, drove it home, packed, and hit the road.

After about 20 miles the check engine light came on again !! I immediately turned around - intending to take it back to AMCOO (it would have been about 4:40 when I got there, and they close at 5). However, when I got off the interstate the car wouldn't engage into gear again from a stop (at a traffic light). I had to get help pushing the car to the side and called AAA.

After getting it towed to my apt, we noticed a trail of fluid from the streed to the parking lot, and then a pool of fluid under the transmission. I started the engine and sure enough the dipstick read dry.

So, with that scenario - here are my options - as I see them.

Tomorrow - bright and early - go to the AMCOO store (by bus, I guess) and present this scenario. Ask them to help me get the car into their garage ASAP to check to see if the leak is due to some sort of part failure, or some mistake that they made.

I don't know if it would be OK to try to put fluid in it and drive it down, or if I should insist on having it towed. If it's towed, and it turns out it is a part failure, I think it would be reasonable for them to expect me to pay the tow. If it's something they did, then they should pay the tow (in addition to whatever other remedy we work out).

I think I want to be under the car watching this inspection.

So, a coupld of questions for the mechanics:

1) Is there any transmission part that you know of that could throw a 'miscellaneous' transmission code (that's how Toyota phrased it to me), and could run fine for a while, then go from running perfectly fine to bad in a matter of only a mile or two, and cause the fluid to all drain out?

2) If a customer came into your shop and tried to be up front in dealing with something like this, do you think most shops would tend to deal forth rightly, or am I likely to get shafted?

3) If today's problem was not caused by a bad part but was negligence, would there be much of a chance that the trans would be OK with just fixing the error (if possible) and filling with fluid? Or, should I hold out for something more.

4) If I should 'hold out for something more', what would be reasonable? Would it be reasonable to expect them to pony up for an entire rebuild seeing as how I have about 112k miles on the car, or would some sort of split be normal? (I had already decided not to replace the transmission and to shop for another car - so the amount I'd be willing to put in is limited, esp seeing as how I've already put in almost $600 for the battery and rebuilt alternator (which seems high to me, by the way).

- TIA -

Bill F

Reply to
bf2s12
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Excellent move, that. ALWAYS get a 2nd opinion on any major repairs.

Sounds like a seal leak.

You can try to put some fluid into it, and start it, see if you can locate the leak. If it's something like an axle seal, that shouldn't be as horribly expensive as a front seal (it is a front wheel drive, isn't it? ) If it's the front seal, they'll have to pull the transmissin.

If it's not a seal (say, the regulator valve collapsed inside the trans, causing it to pump the fluid out a vent or seal, ) then things get a lot more expensive....

It might have been the tranny computer noticing the lower pressure and saying "HEY, look under me, I'm leaking!"

Really, that depends on the shop. You may want to look around for shops, and take the time to call the Better Business bereau in your area, see if any shops you're considering have generated complaints.

It may just be something as simple as a seal going bad... (it may hold fluid until it gets warm or under pressure, then spew it all out, hence the trouble codes, )

Yea, $500 is a lot for a battery. You're looking at least a grand for a rebuilt transmisson if you have the shop do the install,

-LMB

Reply to
Louis M. Brown

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, next time, take care of mechanicals before tunes! Driving without tunes won't cost you anything but driving with a bad component might.

Call the AAMCO shop and politely explain the situation. They should have connections with a tow company to help you get the car into the shop or they may send someone out to take a look at it.

Don't try driving the car. Whatever caused the leak is still there so more fluid will only leak out, possibly causing (further) damage to the transmission. It definitely needs to be towed if it is leaking ATF.

Trouble code P700 indicates a problem with the Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) circuit; P701 indicates a problem with transmission performance; P702 indicates a problem with transmision electrical system.

I doubt if any of those would cause the fluid to all drain out. The most likely cause of the fluid draining out is that someone didn't tighten a connection when they did the trans flush.

AAMCO's are a hit and miss. Actually most shops are hit and miss.

It is possible that someone could tighten the loose connection, refill the ATF, and send you on your way with no problem. The problem is that any damage caused might not manifest itself for a while, like worn clutches and brakes within the transmission.

They may offer to split the cost of a rebuild or reman tranny. If they do, take the money and run.

Reply to
Ray O

Sounds like someone didn't tighten a connection after doing a tranny flush.

Reply to
Ray O

Louis, thanks for writing.

I was thinking something along these lines - at least for the second code (the one from today). What do you think about the suggestion that the first code was an aberation caused by low or 'dirty' voltage, and that the battery/alternator fixed it. Then, with this scenario, the shop caused the second 'different' code by doing or not doing something when they flushed the tranny. Or, it could be that something (perhaps a seal, as you've suggested) was going bad all along, and the battery and alternator were not related, and the shop just didn't catch the problem when they evaluated the transmission yesterday. If that's the case then they probably don't owe me anything (though I'll be upset if I"ve put good money into the charging system if I'm going to basically have to junk the car and buy something else).

It would be interesting to find out if the current check engine code is the same or different from the code that was there previously. If different, it would tend to support the case that this code was caused by something that was done by the shop.

Neither Toyota or AMCOO told me what the previous codes were (are these numeric codes (like I think they are in GM cars)).

This is AMCOO transmission, probably the largest chain in the US (by far, I would guess). I think they are franchises, but they are national. So, I'd think there is probably some sort of recourse or ombudsman. But, first I need to determine if there is really any fault on the shops part. I don't want to fly off the handle, I just want to get to the bottom of it, and do it quickly.

The nearly $600 (not $500) I mentioned below was for the battery, alternator and installation. The shop did have a charge for evaluating the transmission, but claimed they would waive that if I had them do the recommended repairs. I think they included that in the figure for the installation (it was $150 total installation - and that alternator looks simple - I'll bet I could do it in 15 minutes).

Toyota quoted $3250. AMCOO didn't give a written quote (because they said the transmission was fine), but when I was getting a ride back to my apartment while they were checking the car, the driver said it would probably be in the neighborhood of 2600-2700 for the 12 month warranty. They also offer packages with 3 yr and lifetime warranties. These ARE rebuild, not new prices.

Reply to
BillF

Ray,

Thanks for writing.

See below ...

If they say that it's their fault but they think tightening and filling are OK, would it be reasonable to go for this _if_ I can get something in writing attesting to their fault and saying that they will fix it (or pay some fixed portion of a rebuild), if it fails in some period (say, 1 or 2 years)? Otherwise I'd be inclined not to go for something like this (I _will not_ suggest it myself).

When you say 'take the money and run' are you literally suggesting asking for 1/2 cash and not fixing (putting money into another car), or are you suggesting I put up the other 1/2 myself and letting them fix it? (They haven't given me a firm estimate, but one of the drivers mentioned a number of 26-2700, so 1/2 would be about 1350, for a 12 month warranty). This is northern NJ, so it's not an inexpensive part of the country.

If I have them do the repair, I'd still like to get to OH (though my hopes for getting there are fading fast). This is going to cost me a minimum of $680 airfare (buying at the last minute). At this point we're assuming it's the shops fault. With that in mind, should I insist they pick this up the airfare as well? (I'd already be there by driving if the trans hadn't failed yesterday afternoon). (I think this is a reasonable request - what do you think?)

Bill F

Reply to
BillF

Since the transmission was not leaking before AAMCO did a flush, and was leaking afterward, the overwhelming liklihood is that AAMCO did not button up the transmission properly, causing the leak.

If they are honest, they will admit their mistake and fix the leak at no cost to you. Don't try to drive the car without fluid, as you will likely cause some real damage.

You may still have another problem associated with the Check Engine Light, or this time it might simply be correctly indicating the loss of fluid.

Of course, there are a lot of other possibilities, but if I were betting, I would bet on a mistake by AAMCO during the flush. It is not that uncommon. Same thing happens with oil changes.

Merritt

Reply to
Merritt Mullen

Merritt,

This is where I'm trying to get a concensus. If it turns out to be AAMCO's problem (thanks of correcting my spelling) do you think they would be likely to only fix the leak and fill the fluid?

Do you work for a shop or dealer? If so, how flexible are they in this sort of thing? Is a shop 'out of pocket' when fixing this sort of mistake or do they typically have some sort of business loss policy to cover them? (Although this isn't truly my concern or business, it might be factor in their eyes in how flexible they will be, and it would be helpful to me to know if such coverage exists or not).

I think I'd want some sort of guarantee that if a problem showed up later on it could be corrected. (Also, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable driving the car to OH tomorrow even if they get it fixed. If it breaks down again part way there I'd be really sunk.

Reply to
BillF

Ray,

I got up this morning, planning on going to discuss this with the guy at AAMCO. I'm still going to do this, but after looking at my paperwork I think I'm in a lot weaker position then I'd thought.

The AAMCO shop didn't make a mention on the bill that I'd even brought the car in for transmission work or that they had inspected it. They didn't mention that they had done a transmission fluid flush. I only have my word that I asked for it, and they confirmed that they had done it.

Then there is the bill from Toyota. It does indicate the transmission code. It says there is a code P0770, and that "fluid is burnt and there is metal in fluid need a transmission". I can't contest if there was microscopic metal in the fluid or not, but I don't think it was burnt, as I'd inspected it myself the day before (visually and by smell). However, I didn't contest the writeup at Toyota at the time I paid the bill, so it's there in writing. I've got to learn to pay more attention to these pieces of paper.

At this point I think my best hope is that AAMCO will tow it in, fix the leak, fill it with fluid, and there is no additional damage from it running dry. Otherwise, I'm screwed ......

Thanks for your help (and thx also to Louis and Merrill)

Bill F.

Reply to
BillF

I would go for a tighten and refill from AAMCO if they give you something in writing about covering the cost of future repairs.

Before trying to speculate on every scenario, I'd find out what condition the transmission is in. If it needs a rebuild and they offer to cover half or more of the cost of a repair, I'd accept the offer.

You can ask the shop to pay for airfare or to cover the cost of a rental car but incidental damages and alternative transportation are usually not covered under any warranty. I wouldn't hold out too much hope for that.

BTW, your experience is why, IMHO, it is worth the extra cost to go to a reputable dealer for service. Their factory trained technicians are experienced at working on Toyotas and they are more likely to take care of their mistakes without you having to jump through as many hoops.

Reply to
Ray O

If you have a receipt that you paid for work at AAMCO, that should be proof enough.

P0770 indicates that there is a shift solenoid malfunction. A problem with a shift solenoid circuit won't cause a catastrophic failure, just shifting problems. The burnt fluid and metal in the fluid could have caused the shift solenoid to jam. Good automatic transmision fluid (ATF) is bright red, and translucent like Gatorade. If it is brown and not translucent, the ATF needs replacement. Metal particles may not appear on the transmission dipstick but may appear on the magnets on the bottom of the transmission oil pan.

Good luck!

Reply to
Ray O

Um, in automatics, there's ALWAYS a little metal in the fluid, it's just the nature of the beast. Now, if there's a LOT of metal in the fluid, then that tranny has had it... best way to tell is to drop the pan and have a look at the magnet in it.

Burnt fluid will usually be blackish-brown, not the red normal fluid will be, and it'll SMELL like burnt oil. Sounds like they may wanna take you for a ride..

Running it dry isn't healthy for it, but as long as you didn't do it for hours on end, it probably didn't kill the trans.

-LMB

Reply to
Louis M. Brown

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