Detroit Free Press Propaganda

This is solely based on the Consumer Reports popularity contest which is hardly a scientiic survey.

Ed

JD power says the same. Is there someone that doesn't?

I quote:

"And the Big Three currently spend about $125 more per vehicle in warranty costs than their Japanese rivals. "

Is that scientific enough?

Ed doesn't believe in the findings because they don't agree with his own opinions of Toyota. He owned a rare Toyota lemon a long time ago and thinks that their reliability is overhyped based on that one experience.

JD Powers says Buicks are more reliable than Toyotas. And what exactly does Consumer Reports say? They don't really give us numbers, just little circles. It might be nice to see the raw data. Having participated in the CR survey many times, I feel that they do a very poor job of collecting data. It is little more than a popularity contest.

That's a four year old article (September of 2001). How much older do you figure the data was? I'd say at best you are talking about 7 year old averages. And $125 is on average less than one warranty visit. The data is old, unexplained, and not even a significant difference.

No

Regards,

Ed White

"High Tech Misfit" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@hightech.misfit...

I may have only owned one, but I am familar with many others. My neighbor's Camry leaves a trail of blue smoke every morning when he pulls out of the driveway. My SO's old Camry leaked oil and transmission fluid all over central North Carolina. A fellow Farmer's Toyota truck ate two transmission and required one engine rebuild in less than 150,000 miles. His wife is now driving another Toyota truck that I have seen in the shop three or four times in the last year (yet she still loves it). I test drove three Tundras last year. Every one of them sounded like a rock grinder when they were first started. When I commented on this to one salesman, he said it was normal and not a problem. Maybe not, but when Expeditions do that, people get upset.

I don't really think Toyota are particualrly bad. If I could have gotten a decent price I would have bought a Tundra last year (and I still think they are the correct size vehicle for my needs). I just get tired of all the claims of super reliability. It is just not true. You only have to ride by the local Toyota dealer, or an independent shop that specializes in Japanese cars to see that Toyotas need repairs. My biggest gripes about Toyota are the boring designs, second rate engineering, and high prices. I also get tired of the news media's coodling of Toyota. Back wen the press was roasting Ford over Explorer rollovers, not one article I saw mentioned the fact that 4Runners had a much higher rollover rate and driver death rate than Explorers. Why not? Doesn't it seem that it might have been useful to put the Explorer accident rate into context by comparing it to other popular vehicles in the class? Or then there is the Consumer Reports reliability rating. If you look at the Tundra rating, the suspension is given an excellent reliability rating for every year. For goodness sake, the front ballvjoints are bing recalled because of a very high failure rate. Before the press started harping on the possibility of fires related to the cruise control, there were more complaints again Tundra ball joint failures than for F150 cruise control fires. Yet everyone know about the Ford cruise control problem. Apparently Consumer Report survey repsonders don't think front weheels falling of their trucks is a problem.

Regards,

Ed White

Jesus...don't let Mike Hunt read this, he'll explode...

Think about it, even it is from 2001, you yourself said Japanese parts are that much more. Considering that domestics paid $125 more on average per vehicle, and Japanese parts actually cost more to replace, we are talking about a HUGE difference.

Even today's articles say that $1500 of each vehicle GM makes goes to union mandated venues, like healthcare and other places. How can you even argue about it?

They said $125 dollars in warranty cost, not $125 in parts. I assume they came up with the number by pulling total warranty costs out of financial statements and dividing it by the number of vehicles sold. The cost of most repairs is driven by labor costs. Administration costs also figure in. So, I stand by the statement that $125 probably represents less than one reapir on average. And when you figure in the difference in initial costs, it seems to me this is a negative for Japanese cars. I know a comparably equipped Camry costs more that $125 more than a Taurus.

Why would I argue about that? GM is saddled with these costs. Despite this, they are building cars of competitive quality and selling them for a lower price. Would you rather have GM go bankrupt and have all the workers end up on the Government dole? Do you want to work for the wages the Japanese pay overseas workers? While workers at the major Japanese assembly plants are well paid, check out the situation for workers at the suppliers. Just see what Delphi plans to do to it's workers for an idea of what typical workers at the Japanese suppliers are getting. I tend to get a lot more upset at the bozos at the top of the GM pyramid. I'd like to see somebody cut their salaries down to the level of the top executives at Toyota.

Ed

This is a condensed version of a Consumer Report srticle. Here are the vehicles listed by Consumer Reports in the original article -

Most reliable

Vehicles listed in scoring order, starting with the best score.

SMALL CARS: Toyota Echo, Honda Civic (2005), Toyota Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid (2005), Toyota Corolla, Subaru Impreza (non turbo).

SPORTY CARS/CONVERTIBLES/COUPES: Honda S2000, Mazda MX-5 Miata (2005), Lexus SC430, Chevrolet Monte Carlo (2005).

SEDANS: Lexus GS300/GS430*, Infiniti M35/M45*, Lexus IS300 (2005), Honda Accord Hybrid*, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord 4-cyl., Lexus LS430.

WAGONS: Toyota Matrix.

MINIVANS: No models for this category.

SMALL SUVS: Toyota RAV4 (2005), Honda CR-V, Honda Element, Subaru Forester, Mercury Mariner*, Mitsubishi Outlander.

MIDSIZED SUVS: Lexus RX400h (Hybrid)*, Toyota Highlander, Toyota 4Runner (V8), Infiniti FX35.

LARGE SUVS: Toyota Land Cruiser.

PICKUP TRUCKS: Honda Ridgeline*, Toyota Tundra.

Least reliable

Vehicles listed in scoring order, starting with the worst score.

SMALL CARS: Chevrolet Cobalt*.

SPORTY CARS/CONVERTIBLES/COUPES: Volkswagen New Beetle Convertible, Mercedes-Benz SL, Mercedes-Benz CLK, Ford Mustang (V6)*, Chevrolet Corvette*, Audi S4.

SEDANS: Jaguar S-Type, Lincoln LS, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Saab 9-3, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, BMW 5 Series (V8), Audi A8, Chrysler 300 (V8)*, BMW 7 Series.

WAGONS: Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Volkswagen Passat (V6) (2005), Volvo V50*.

MINIVANS: Nissan Quest, Buick Terraza*, Chevrolet Uplander*, Pontiac Montana SV6*, Saturn Relay*.

SMALL SUVS: Saturn Vue (AWD), Hyundai Tucson*, Kia Sportage*.

MIDSIZED SUVS: Volkswagen Touareg, Porsche Cayenne, Land Rover LR3*, Land Rover Range Rover*, Ford Explorer (2005), Mercury Mountaineer (2005), Jeep Grand Cherokee*, Ford Freestyle (AWD)*, Cadillac SRX, Volvo XC90, Chevrolet TrailBlazer (V8), GMC Envoy (V8), BMW X5 (V8).

LARGE SUVS: Infiniti QX56, Nissan Armada, Hummer H2, Lincoln Navigator, Ford Expedition.

PICKUP TRUCKS: Nissan Titan, Chevrolet Colorado (4WD), GMC Canyon (4WD).

Ed

"...Hey folks, look!...my son's the only soldier in this whole squad who's 'in step'..."

What is it about Toyota fanatics that allow them to spot the tiniest flaw in American vehicles while glossing over major problems with Toyotas. Examples abound - 4 Runer rollovers, sludged engines, Tundra ball joints, Camry cruise controls, Corolla rear suspension, Sienna fires, etc., etc. If 50 Foci get recalled, the Toyotites crow about how it proves Americans can't build cars. 100,000 Tundras get recalled for defective ball joints, and it's just an over blown over reaction to a non-problem drummed up by the Toyota hating press. Sludged engines - oh that doesn't happen. Or if it did, it was becasue the person drove 100000000000 miles and never changed the oil, while using piss to top it off. And becides it was only one person that had the problem and she lied about it. She was really driving a '65 Rambled disquised as a Sienna.

Get real. You can claim I am out of step, but that is just a way of avoiding the truth. Toyota, like most manufacturer's, make mistakes.

Ed

"C. E. White" wrote: snip

Well Ed, I agree with you that all makes have the odd problem but, although I've not had a great number of vehicles, I've personally had -much- less trouble with Toyotas than any other make...mind you, I've had nothing -but- Toyotas for the past 18 years...I usually upgrade about every 4 years so I don't usually have old cars...we have three Toyotas in our driveway here and have had only Toyotas for 12 years now. None of us have had ANY repairs at all in those years, just the scheduled maintenance service...oh! shucks yes...I did replace one wiper arm on my Corolla (it stripped the driven end)...dealership did it...'no chawge'. (and no argument at all - they offered)

You cannot argue with success like that. IMO

True, but my parents could tell you almost exactly the same story about Fords. Or I have a good friend that buys nothing but Buicks. I think in the last 15 years his biggest problem was a coil pack. I just think the Toyota propaganda machine works overtime at creating the illusion that Toyota are soooo much better than anything else. It is just not true. Might they be

0.5% better than GM products? Maybe. Certainly some Toyota models are better than some GM models. But it seems to me that Toyota fanatics want to compare the reliability of 2006 Camry's to 1971 Vegas. I have a 2003 Saturn Vue. I had to take it in because GM updated the rear suspension after it did nasty things in the NHTSA extreme rollover test. So, if I am honest, I'd have to say it had one repair (in 38,0000 miles). But if instead of the Vue, I had bought a 2003 Tundra (something I considered at the time), it would have also been recalled because of the front ball joint problem.

Ed

Yep...well I suppose perception is 90 percent of the game then...I guess you can only go with what you've observed yourself, most manufacturers brag their products to the sky, best thing since sliced bread etc...

Just one bad experience can sour one on a brand pretty quickly. I had a Dodge Dakota Sport 4X4 crewcab with a big momma engine in it, it loved fuel but was a fun thing to play with on snowy roads. Then it started to eat 'transfer cases' (gear boxes). Cost me an arm and a leg, I finally turfed it and you'll never see one in my garage again...

But, that's life I guess, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

Toyota like ALL manufacture makes some on occasion that are not up to snuff, that is why the ALL offer a warranty. The big difference is Toyota, and all the other Japanese brands, parts cost a lot more than the parts for most domestic brands. ;)

mike hunt

Better quality usually costs more. Instead of GM buying better parts, they pay for union wages and retirement funds.

The owners of most every other brand can give the same glowing testimony about they vehicles, as well. Every manufacture today is building good reliable vehicles the only real difference among them is style an price. It seems Toyota buyer must tell everyone their vehicle is something special when they are not.

mike hunt

There has been an average of 19,000,000 new vehicles sold annually in the US for a number of years. To assume all of brand 'X' vehicle are good, or bad, based on the ONE you bought is a bit foolish. The truth is one chance if getting a bad one of ANY brand is about 2%. One is far more likely to get one of any brands 98% that are problem free. ;)

mike hunt