Power used by demist, headlights &c?

Here in the UK we have been experiencing the slow onset of wintry weather along with earlier nightfalls and I have been noticing an interesting variation in my car's fuel consumption. That it is a Prius is probably not very important; but it does keep me advised on consumption figures, which have set me wondering.

When it was new in early August, I was getting 58-60mpg(UK). The weather was mainly warm and dry and most driving was in daylight. So equipment such as headlights and electric rear window demister were not used seriously. OTOH, the electric a/c ran often.

With temperatures down to around 3-4 C and rain on many days, the demister had heavy use, along with headlights, and mpg(UK) dipped to 54 or so. When the car is still cold, I think windscreen heat comes from the battery, which must be replaced (if indirectly) by the petrol engine, thus using fuel; this last is a guess, though.

Lower temperatures led to drier air, with waste engine heat being enough to demist. But mpg(UK) still went through a 50-ish period from which we seem to be recovering slowly (up to 52+).

The general driving style and routes have not varied much. Where they have varied, mpg have tended to go in the "wrong" direction: ie, up when they should go down, and _vice versa_.

Tyre pressures have been watched carefully. I have not driven in snow, or more than token coats of mud and/or water on the road.

This leads to two technical questions:

1) Typically, what sort of a load (in KW) do a full set of night- lights (headlights plus sidelights) plus the rear window demister cause in a medium-sized Toyota? (Prius, if it matters.)

2) Assuming I go to the same garage and fill up with what is sold as the same basic grade of unleaded fuel, what percent variations in calorific value are likely? Would +/- 9% be improbable? I go to a big UK supermarket chain (Sainsburys) selling its own brand.

Am interested to hear thoughts on this.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson
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Well your headlights are gonna take 110W, sides probably 5-10W, demister - maybe 10-15w. Car may take longer to get up to temp so the ECU may keep the fuel rich for a tiny bit longer at startup.

Shouldnt see more than 200w usage extra IMO. My mpg has dropped from 320 miles to a tank (62 litres) to 260 so count yaself lucky lol - dont think thats weather related though. Seriously though, 9% is about the figure I used to get on my other car. Dont think fuel calorific value varies much at all.

J
Reply to
Coyoteboy

Snip a significant drop in fuel mileage when it got cold.

Headlights are 55W or 60W each, Stop lamps and turn signals (both ends) are 32W each, the CHMSL is in the 32W range if it's an incandescent, and the tail lights, side marker, license lamps are anywhere from 1W to 2W each. Overall, not that much. For headlights, tail lights, instruments and markers, 150W constant (12 to

13 amps) is a nice round number to work with.

Hit the brakes and you throw another 100W of load on, and turn signals would average about 40 - 50W when you figure the duty cycle.

Change any of those 'other than headlights' loads from incandescent to LED lamps, and you cut the load by (educated guess) 60 to 75 percent.

The heater blower is going to be under 100W at full load, so that won't change too much. Same blower for air conditioning. The AC running during the Defrost cycle (for dry air) will add another 100 watts between the compressor clutch and the condenser fan.

Add it all up, and a small fuel mileage drop is to be expected.

If they put an oxygenate additive in the fuel such as ethanol or MTBE or such in the winter "for smog reduction", that additive drops the BTU per gallon of the fuel up to 10% - California fuel mileage numbers took a big hit when the US Federal Government started insisting on an oxygenate additive.

(And now we have MTBE in the ground water from the filling station tanks and pipes leaking, but that's another discussion...)

On a Prius, the engine will be running a bit longer at startup in cold weather to warm up before it will go into "Stealth Mode" in city traffic, and run a bit longer to get the BTU's for heater output. And it does need to enrich the mixture a bit more for a very cold startup (probably below 0 Celsius), but that shouldn't affect overall mileage that much. (Yes, I know it's a totally different combustion cycle, and they spin the engine up good and fast before turning on the fuel, but there are some things you can't change.)

Does the new Prius still have that 'bladder in the gas tank' setup? It cuts down on evaporative emissions, but the older Priii ;-) are reported to have been temperamental, and the tank will take several liters more or less on a fill from day to day - depending on whether the bladder lets you fill it to the brim or not. This can confuse the mileage calculations when done on a per-tank basis, though figuring the average over several tanks should even those variations out.

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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

Snip

Personally I would use better quality fuel than supermarket stuff.

The Prius keeps its water hot in a sort of thermos flask, so if you leave the car for several days then that gets cold and reduces the mpg.

Any power use is ultimately produced by petrol, so the more of one you use, the more of the other is used.

Slowing down recharges the battery, so the worst use you can give the prius is long steady motorway use, around town is far better (economically)

My friend has an 05 Prius in the uk (Essex), his economy has also dropped a little to 52 - 53 recently, usually it is more like 58.

So your figures are just as I would expect.

mrcheerful

Reply to
mrcheerful

Is that the case? Thats pretty interesting - didnt know that! Doesnt the fractional decrease in time-to-warm get outweighed by the extra weight of carrying round a significant quantity of extra water? J

Reply to
Coyoteboy

apparently it gets pumped there and out again, so that the engine warms quicker. so there probably isn't much extra coolant, but lots of bits to make it happen !

mrcheerful

Reply to
mrcheerful

Thanks. See other replies for extra remarks.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

IOW just tootling along with night running lights, windscreen fan blowing a/c'd air and rear electric demister should give an extra load of around 390W. Estimating the car's essential power use is tricky but suppose a guess-average of 60KW (slightly over 80HP), then the extra load represents 390/60000 or 6.5% extra power use.

If that's the case, then I can well understand how mpg could nose dive. I don't know if UK petrol suppliers bother with any major winter formulations. For diesel, it's quite likely, as (believe it or not) we do sometimes get serious weather (compared with our usual relaxed not-too-cold-not-too-hot setup). I'll see if I can find out, next time I fill up.

The effect of the coolant storage bottle is quite evident, both in how the engine attains its median efficiency faster even after a stop of 3-4 hours in zero-ish (C) weather, and in how the cabin warms. (Prius doesn't yet have heated seats as an option. I did ask but it looks like Toyota expect the bulk cabin heater to take care of it -- which it seems to, sort of.)

Don't know. In practice, calibration of the segmented dashboard gauge and the litres one ends up putting into the tank are a good fit with each other. They may have fixed those bugs.

One dim trick the system pulls is to zero the ongoing mpg figure if you add more than about 10 litres. :-( That may be a hangover from older bladder problems. Hints exist, here and there in the design, that Toyota are feeling their way on the best way to do some things, so you are apt to find minor (NB) options that don't make sense. For example, locking with the remote uses one click to do the basic locking, and a second click for "double" locking. Could they not have done full locking with the first click? I'll be interested to see how such details evolve.

FWIW, a full tank is about 45 litres, or roughly 12 US gallons.

Wouldn't mpg be calculated by measuring the output of a fuel flow meter and road wheel revolutions, and therefore be independent of what's happening in the tank?

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

I truly don't know how good or bad Sainbury's fuel is; but, going by their overall attitude to quality (for example, several orders of magnitude better than ASDA, now owned by Wal-Mart), I find it easy to trust they're not selling rubbish. OTOH, your scepticism may be well founded. It'd be interesting to learn the truth.

Interesting. Thanks. The service dept of my Toyota dealer said most of their Prius owners get around 55 mpg(UK); but it was then warmer weather; or maybe he meant "over a full year".

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

Overnight is enough to let it cool. The benefit is mostly within the same working period with pauses of a few hours being covered. My guess(NB) is the flask is a sump, into which coolant drains. Must ask, when I next can.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

snip

You might like to read through all the info here: Masses of prius info:

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mrcheerful

Reply to
mrcheerful

!!do'h!! That's what you get for counting on your fingers too fast. "390/60000" should be rather smaller -- more like 0.65%. So those extras do not, on their own, look like major villains.

If anyone troubled to set me straight, thanks for the effort.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

Thank you.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

The "Supermarket Stuff" isn't going to be bad, it just might not be the very best. It probably works the same way in Europe as it does here - there is some "Branded Gasoline" that uses a special formula and is made by the brands's refineries especially for their stations, and it is transported specially through the pipelines to the local distribution tank farms.

But most of the fuel out there is "commodity gasoline" that can be made by any refinery (and blended into one big commingled batch) as long as it meets the specifications for hydrocarbon composition, octane, BTU content, vapor pressure, etc.

(The special blends for high altitudes and/or pollution control complicate that, but not too much. Just like the low and ultra-low sulfur Diesel that is required in some areas and not others.)

You'll have to ask one of the managers at that supermarket chain to find out who they get their fuel from in your region.

One regional tank farm might supply a half-dozen different branded stations - The only thing special about most gasolines at the brand-name stations is the detergent and additive package added to the raw gasoline. Chevron Texaco's is Techron, and the other refiners have trade names for theirs.

The base gasoline all the retail stations use is (or can be) a market traded commodity, the detergent and additive package is added at the "rack" when they fill the delivery tank truck headed for the filling station. If it is going to a Chevron branded station they set the meter to add their special Techron additive, if it's going to a small outlet they use the generic detergent additive.

That's about as short as I can edit it and still make sense.

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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

Interesting, ta. It's really a very basic business -- forget all of that BS about how each company carefully builds its fuel, just for _your_ car. ;-)

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

I think the 80HP number is unrealistically high, I read some time ago that the power required to maintain 60 mph was something around 25 HP and that was not considering the areodynamics built into a Prius.

I kept mileage numbers on an 89 Camry for 15 years and it averaged 32.2 MPG in Canada. Summer around 35 mpg and winter mid to low 20's, that was in Winnipeg. I always thought that the rolling resistance of the tires and the road surface condition was a large reason for the lower mileage, as well as different gas formulas.

Slim

Reply to
Slim Pickings

Here is a link to a power requirement calculator.

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Slim

Reply to
Slim Pickings

See my reply to the post about the online power calculator.

I'm also wondering whether higher air density in colder weather might be significant. There are so many factors.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

What a neat resource! Even if it has to make approximations due to uncertainty about conditions, it's a lot better than guessing.

The relevant Prius numbers: Kerb weight = 2890 lb = 1310.882 Kg (ignores my weight, &c) Height = 58.1" Width = 67.9" Drag coefficient (Cd) = 0.26

The height and weight probably do not accurately define the area pushing through air, as they will span objects like side mirrors while not allowing for the gap beneath the car. But I converted literally to square metres, getting 2.545.

Plugging these into the calculator gives (as best I can read the scales): @ 68 mph : 17 KW @ 100 mph : 47 KW

In practice, my average speed is well below 68 mph; but let's use that. The "extras" (lights, demister, a/c) guessed in my earlier post at 390 W would constitute 390/17000 or 2.3% of the average. So it looks as if the extras are not to be sniffed at, after all.

With my real average speed being well below 68 mph, the extras in my case actually cost more than 2.3%.

Hmm...

Thanks, chaps. This brains trust seems to have got a result.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

There are a few who do - but it's a very small minority and shrinking. They do spend some real effort on the detergent additive packages, but even the generic one is just fine - the US Govt. has tests to make sure that they keep the system clean, and I'm sure other big companies (Mercedes...) have their own minimum requirements.

Now when you get into "Racing Gasoline" or other ultra-premium fuels they DO build it from scratch by blending specific distillates and fractions. Good stuff, but far too expensive for everyday use.

But for the people who want to go out on the weekend and drive their

70's Musclecars, like a RumbleBee or GTO with the factory high performance radical-cam motors built to run on 102 octane plus, or the guy with the Ferrari TestaRossa with the LeMans motor, they'll pay whatever they need to in order to buy their fuel.

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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

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