Camry ocassionaly won't start at first key turn

Does it 'turn over' and not start or does it remain silent when you turn the key?

--Winston

Car remains silent when turn the key

Here are some ideas in order of decreasing likelihood and increasing complexity. Always check the easy stuff first!

Connection to the battery

Get into some old clothes that you don't care about. Wear protective goggles and gloves.

1) Write down all of your radio station presets and the security code to your radio, if equipped. 2) Disconnect the battery (Disconnect negative terminal first Always!) 3) Clean the battery connectors to shiny metal with a wire brush. Use a special 'battery brush' to get inside the connector. 4) Clean the battery posts using the other end of your battery brush. 5) Connect your battery (Connect positive terminal first Always!) 6) Start the car and reset your radio security code and presets.

Wash your work clothes separately. Where you have brushed your clothing against battery acid, you will see a hole. Do not wear your best clothes for this stuff!

Park/Neutral Switch

1) Referring to your downloaded shop manual, bypass the 'park/neutral' switch. Does the car always start with the switch bypassed? Suspect this switch.

Ignition Fuse, something else.

1) Download the shop manual for your car from the TIS Toyota Information System It will cost you $15 for two days access. That will be the smartest $15 you ever spend.

2) Use your multimeter to eliminate each component as a suspect using a binary search method (fancy language for dividing the system in half and let the system tell you which way to head.)

A) For example: Referring to your schematic, unplug the 'start relay' and connect your multimeter to pin 1 of the relay socket and your black probe to a metal object on the frame (or a better ground if you can find it).

Watch the multimeter display and turn your key to the 'start' position. You will NOT hear the engine crank, but you should see about 12 V appear on pin 1 of that relay.

i) If you *do* see 12 V in the 'start' position and the car still does not crank when you put the relay back, you can assume that everything from that relay to the battery is probably OK. The 'start' relay and its socket are still suspects, though. Resume testing from the relay onwards. These components will include the 'start' relay itself and it's socket, the wiring that connects the 'ground' side of the relay coil to ground and all the wires and connectors associated with these paths.

ii) If you *don't* see 12 V in the 'start' position and the car still does not crank after you put the relay back, you can assume that the problem is either the 'start' relay, it's socket or an intermittent connection from the battery to the relay. These components include the ignition switch, the main power fuse, the ignition fuse, their sockets, the park/neutral switch on your transmission, and all the wires and connections between these parts.

B) Write down all your readings and the locations of the parts that you test.

C) Refer to the schematic and test each component in succession until you determine which one is blocking current in this path.

Easy, huh? :)

--Winston

Here are some ideas in order of decreasing likelihood and increasing complexity. Always check the easy stuff first!

Connection to the battery

Get into some old clothes that you don't care about. Wear protective goggles and gloves.

1) Write down all of your radio station presets and the security code to your radio, if equipped. 2) Disconnect the battery (Disconnect negative terminal first Always!) 3) Clean the battery connectors to shiny metal with a wire brush. Use a special 'battery brush' to get inside the connector. 4) Clean the battery posts using the other end of your battery brush. 5) Connect your battery (Connect positive terminal first Always!) 6) Start the car and reset your radio security code and presets.

Wash your work clothes separately. Where you have brushed your clothing against battery acid, you will see a hole. Do not wear your best clothes for this stuff!

Park/Neutral Switch

1) Referring to your downloaded shop manual, bypass the 'park/neutral' switch. Does the car always start with the switch bypassed? Suspect this switch.

Ignition Fuse, something else.

1) Download the shop manual for your car from the TIS Toyota Information System It will cost you $15 for two days access. That will be the smartest $15 you ever spend.

2) Use your multimeter to eliminate each component as a suspect using a binary search method (fancy language for dividing the system in half and let the system tell you which way to head.)

A) For example: Referring to your schematic, unplug the 'start relay' and connect your multimeter to pin 1 of the relay socket and your black probe to a metal object on the frame (or a better ground if you can find it).

Watch the multimeter display and turn your key to the 'start' position. You will NOT hear the engine crank, but you should see about 12 V appear on pin 1 of that relay.

i) If you *do* see 12 V in the 'start' position and the car still does not crank when you put the relay back, you can assume that everything from that relay to the battery is probably OK. The 'start' relay and its socket are still suspects, though. Resume testing from the relay onwards. These components will include the 'start' relay itself and it's socket, the wiring that connects the 'ground' side of the relay coil to ground and all the wires and connectors associated with these paths.

ii) If you *don't* see 12 V in the 'start' position and the car still does not crank after you put the relay back, you can assume that the problem is either the 'start' relay, it's socket or an intermittent connection from the battery to the relay. These components include the ignition switch, the main power fuse, the ignition fuse, their sockets, the park/neutral switch on your transmission, and all the wires and connections between these parts.

B) Write down all your readings and the locations of the parts that you test.

C) Refer to the schematic and test each component in succession until you determine which one is blocking current in this path.

Easy, huh? :)

--Winston

my auto electrician called the OP's symptoms "voltage drupe" and connected the wire going to the starter solenoid to a relay on the battery and the relay to the starter solenoid ie battery directly to the starter solenoid.

Gordon W

(...)

Well, not *necessarily* the start relay...

wire going to the starter solenoid to a

to the starter solenoid.

As a troubleshooting gambit or as a repair? :)

Let's say for the sake of argument that the problem turns out to be a worn-out, intermittent park/neutral switch. (Happened on my Camry wagon once).

Do we really get closer to fixing the car by jumpering around the broken part?

--Winston

If the car starts a fwe minutes later, it's not the battery.... unless there is an intermittent "short" in the battery. I had that once, but only when the car was hot. When it cooled off 15 minutes later, it started right up. This went on for days, causing a problem for 5 or 10 warm starts, before I figured out it was the battery and got a new one. I didnt' carry a meter with me in those days, but I do now and if I suspected the battery, I'd test it. Should be 12.6 volts when the car isn't running. I'm guessing my bad battery was under 11.

If the battery is fully charged, the alternator is probably fine, but even if it weren't, that wouldn't prevent the car from starting. The purpose of the alternator, wrt starting the car, is to recharge the battery. It doesn't play any direct role in starting the car.

Most kinds of tests on something with an intermittent problem are going to be inconclusive.

At least in this case he said "appeared" to be fine. One needs to do the testing when the car won't start. If this happened every cold morning, you could leave the car at the shop, so he could find it broken in the morning and test it. Did he suggest this? Click and Clack routinely suggest this for problems like yours.

Of course, yours starts okay 3 or 4 time a week, so leaving it there might be a lot of trouble with no results, so it would help if you learned to do testing and you can do it only when the car won't start.

When that is the case, and you havent' yet cleaned the battery terminals, you might have someone try to start it while you feel each battery terminal. If there is a bad connection but not a totally bad connection, that terminal will get hot. That's the really dirty one.

(I don't think this is your prolbme now, biecause it starts a few minutes later, but it's not a bad idea to use baking soda to neutralize any acid that gets on top of the battery. They say to make a paste with wrarm water, but I just spoon on the powder, on and near the terminals and any place iwhere the top of the battery looks dirty, and then slowly our warm water over it, until it stops bulbbling. Then some more water to wash everything off the top of the battery. This year for the first time in 45 years, I got some baking soda in one of the open battery cells. Very bad. I guess I've always done this before when the caps were all on

I suspect it is the ignition switch or the starter relay, or conceivably the winding of the starter solenoid (I just got a toyota. I presume they have starter solenoids) If you can find the starter relay and have someone else try to start the car while you put your fintgers on the relay, you should probably feel a click. If you do, that means the ignitioin switch is good. If you don't, maybe it just means it clicks too quietly to feel it. If when your standing by the open hood, you hear a click from the starter motor area, it means everything is good up to the solenoid......oops, emergency phone call. Got to go.

I see that Winston goes into the electrical testing quite thorougly.

Those symptoms are also consistent with dirty battery connections. Cleaning the posts and wire lugs is quick and easy if one works safely. This includes wearing disposable clothing and eye protection *and* nitrile gloves.

At these current levels, it doesn't take much corrosion to cause the symptoms of a failed battery. Cleaning connections should be done before practically *any* other step in the troubleshooting process.

It'd be much wiser to just clean the posts and lugs. It costs pennies and minutes to do so.

Clean connections can prevent problems in the future, too.

That might have been relatively harmless advice back in the days when batteries were designed to be maintained. Batteries actually had a raised rim around each cap opening that tended to prevent junk from falling into the cells:

Modern batteries don't have that feature and will funnel crap into the cells. That soda slurry on the top of the battery will get flushed into into it and ruin the battery sooner or later, I guarantee.

Yup. Just flush the closed top of the battery with lots of deionized water whilst cleaning with a disposable 'parts brush' instead.

*Soda has no business anywhere near a car battery.*

Use your multimeter instead. Perfectly competent multimeters are available for very little money and will give you the straight information.

--Winston

Good point. (Wasn't the cause in that case, however.)

I passed by this the first time, but by the time I got to the end, got tired of your not just alternate advice but actual criticism, so I'll say that gloves and goggles are nice, but I've been doing this for 45+ years, not every day but on my own cars as most do, and I've never gotten even a brown mark on my hands, and even if I had, it would be replaced by fresh skin in a few days. Unless one is a hand model, I see no need for gloves.

I've never gotten anything near my eyes, probably because I don't use a brush like you suggest below. And I've never gotten a spot on my clothing, maybe because I don't use a brush. Without the brush, everything just stays on the battery or dribbles down the side, doesn't fly anywhere.

I did once, when filling a new empty motorcycle battery, splatter a few drops of battery strength sulfuric acid on my old pants, and that made little holes in them. But that's not at all the same as adding water to a battery. And I don't use disposable clothing, which costs money. I use old clothing, which just gets a little older if it gets stains or holes. (Maybe that's what you meant by disposable, but it sounded like you meant to throw it away after use, rather than just wash it.)

It depends. Not when you're taking someone to catch his train, and you're dressed in a suit and tie and don't even want to rummage in the trunk for tools unless it's necessary And don't want to take the time to do both if only onepost is dirty. In this case the car had already started fine and run fine for about 6 miles, so there was no need to have my friend try to start the car. One post was still hot when I touched it.

Anyhow, people should know about more techniques than just standard maintenance.

Of course. But there comes a time in many people's lives when they are lax on maintenance.

It was *good* advice then. And maybe still is.

Oh, thanks. Good to know. That accounts for why I never made this mistake before. Next time I won't wash unless the caps are in.

BTW, this was with the battery that was about to be scrapped, so it didn't actually cost anyone anything. I had been checking the water level, and two cells needed water.

This sounds a lot harder, slower, and likely to be less effective. Deionized water may well flush away everything that has been loosened, but it won't neutralize whatever doesn't get flushed away. And the flushing leaves a lot of water in the battery tray, which will then be acidic without the baking soda to neutralize it.

Also, I don't think deionized water is needed for flushing. The small amount of minerals in most or all tap water won't be enough to cause current leakage. To refill the battery, I use distilled.

And to tell the truth, I'd be more likely to accept this advice if you did't give such pristine advice at the top and the bottom. Although I also think you are in the minority here.

Well, you keep assuming everyone has the tools and has them with him. I carry a meter, a battery brush., a set of wrenches, and more, but I assure you, most don't and won't, regardless of how cheap they are. And people aren't always driving their own car. Or they're riding with someone else who has no tools at all.

Diagnosis is often the hard part and there is more than one way to diagnose.

I don't object to the advice you give but I do object to your use of "much wiser", "might have been relatively harmless", and "instead", all of which clearly imply that my advice was wrong, even though it wasn't.

'Sorry you took my words as criticism, Micky. I phrased my answer for folks who will stumble across our USENET conversation via web browser. Many of them won't be aware of some of the safety aspects of this stuff.

crit·i·cism/?krit??siz?m/ Noun:

The expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes: "he ignored the criticisms of his friends".

I think you are a fine fellow and I approve of you to the greatest degree possible. I myself have made my share of unfortunate misstatements and am always happy to learn new information which will make me safer.

If I'd known that the 'soda on your battery' was so inadvisable back in my callow youth, I'd have saved the price of a replacement when I really couldn't afford it. I just hope to save others from making the same mistake.

Both you and I go gloveless often. Our hands show it, too. :) I'm concerned about folks for whom this is new info and wouldn't necessarily know to rinse an acid splash off of their hands when they experience that 'burning feeling'. :)

I've worked without protective gear and lived to regret it. (Ask me about splashing gasoline in my eyes. It was extremely stupid, scary and not at all fun.)

But no 'spots' yes? :)

The hazard is still there, or else you would not be concerned about the acid present on top of the battery, yes?

Nup. As you say, old 'work' clothes are much preferred for auto work because of the staining and holes that regularly occur. And, they are paid for.

That sounds a little contrived, Micky. :)

I don't recommend changing the oil whilst transporting a lady in labor, either. :)

Well, yes. I'm just pointing out that 'a stitch in time saves nine', so to speak.

I disagree. It is risky to the continued good functioning of the battery. Even a tap water rinse on the closed battery will tend to neutralize the acid on the top without risking much of anything.

And maybe still is.

It's the guy who thinks he is doing preventive maintenance with soda on his battery that gets to buy a new battery as a result. There is something ironic in that. :)

I regularly put deionized water in 'maintenance free' car batteries. They pay me back with much longer life. Ain't nothing wrong with that, for sure.

'Course it will tend to neutralize the acid. Battery acid has a ph below 2.0 (Some sources put it far lower than that.) D.I. water is up around 5 to 7 ph. Even tap water ranges from ph 6 to 8.5. A rinse with D.I. water or the garden hose will push the ph of the top of the battery towards basic. That is the definition of the term 'neutralization'.

Nonsense. Properly done, the rinse water will be acceptably neutral and will drain and dry long before it becomes a problem, especially with the temperatures and airflow under the hood.

I agree. If the battery is closed, tap water is a perfectly fine rinse.

Me, too.

pris·tine/?pris?t?n/ Adjective:

In its original condition; unspoiled. Clean and fresh as if new; spotless.

Thank you, Micky!

That's another contrived 'corner condition', Micky. Anyone suffering electrical problems in a car can afford to use sufficiently decent test gear, even if it is borrowed.

Putting a soda slurry on top of a car battery never was a particularly good idea in the past and is economically risky, now. It is bad advice, for reasons I've mentioned.

--Winston

faults or mistakes: "he ignored the

Thank you for your kind words.

First, I'm sorry it's taken so long to post back. I had a medical procedure that put me in the hospital for a day and a half, and lay me up for almost a month, including another procedure, and since I've been better, i've been way behind on newsgroups, email, and even phone calls.

I thought these 6 lines are all I would write, but I see below you said something that actually happened to me was contrived, and that we have some disagreements about good auto technique.

I pour the baking soda on from 8" high, and the water (warm tap water usually) from a foot high. I do it slow and it's never splattered on me. Maybe I should have included all that for those folks.

I think a brush is a bad idea when trying to remove caustic or acidic particles. Except the battery brush that goes around a battery post wouldn't have this risk, but the half that goes inside the battery claimp could. Brushing off the top of the battery is something I wouldn't do unless I was wearling glasses and old clothes. It also gets bad stuff on the brush, which then needs washing. . This is why over time, I switched to the method I use now.

NO, it's not contrived. It's exactly what happened when I was taking my friend to the train station on Monday morning, so he could go back to work almost 3 hours away, after he had spent a weekend here. He had reservations on a particular train and didnt' want to miss it. So it took me about two minutes from opening the hood to closing the hood to get the car running again.

Except I didn't have to have my friend try to start the car. It was running, it stalled and wouldn't restart. One battery post was still hot after I opened the hood, and the other was not hot at all. . I think I just wiggled the clamp to make better contact with the post. I I was on a busy street too, one that fed an expressway and had no parking lane, so I was glad to be able to fix the car while the traffic behind me was held up by one cycle of the red light.

Maybe I cleaned the connection that night, but IIRC, I didn't and the car didn't give me any trouble for weeks or months after that.

And I'm just giving a fairly new newbie ways to find his cars problem, when he didn't do preventive maintence earlier and wants to get going right now because he has to be somewhere.

Sorry. I disagree. I don't believe that, and you don't give a reason.

Tap water will dilute acid but it won't "tend to neutralize" it. And there is no visual indication when one has done enough.

It would be if it were true, but I've used baking soda many times with no problem. And I've seen loads of pros recommend a paste of baking soda and water.

I made a mistake this one time, doing it, or part of it, when a set of

3 caps was out, but the battery was so far gone, I doubt it made any difference. . I was probably careless because I'd made up my mind to buy a new one, but felt obliged to make a last ditch effort.

I had always used distilled water in the past, but a friend who visits and only drinks distilled doesn't come much since he got married, and I've stopped using my steam iron, so I haven't bought more.

No. Plain water does not neutralize acid. Bases neutralize acid, and baking soda does too, even though wikip doesn't quite describe it as a base.

Ah, but a lot of other pages say that it is.

5 is still acidic. You would be mixing two acids, and that would dilute the stronger one, but that is not neutralizing. 7 is neutral, but it takes something that is alkaline, above 7, to netrualize an acid.

Nol, it is not. It's an example of rinsing.

You mean acceptably close to neutral. Perhaps.

Okay, it may not cause problems. The only problems I recall for sure were on the battery hold-down that went over the battery. I think that damage already existed befroe I got the car.

:-)

:-)

No. If you include the first situation I listed, people who have a multimeter but don't carry it with them, it's probably the majority of situations, even for those who are willing to do some of their own work. Look in most people's trunks and they are almost as empty as the day they bought the car.

I didn't say he couldn't afford it. In fact it costs nearly nothing. I said he wouldn't have them with him.

I didnt' see you give any reason. I think you said it might be harmful, but you didn't say how, at least I can't find it now. .