Toyota TSB - Why don't dealers contact customers of affected vehicles?

TSB are service tips that tell shops how to handle common Customer complaints and problems. Not every vehicle will suffer from the problems and not all Customer will be concerned about some of the others. If you notice a problem and there is a related TSB, then your chances of getting a good first time fix are enhanced. But just because there is a TSB for your car, doesn't mean you need the fix described. A lot of TSBs merely describe the proper methods to be used or notify the service departments that new parts are available. Calling up Customers and telling them that there car might be affected by a particular TSB seems like a bad idea if the Customer is not having a problem. Personally I'd like my car to stay out of the shop unless there is a problem. For serious problems, auto makers issue recalls.

Regards,

Ed White

Car Guy wrote:

Thanks for your information.

I would still think that if the problem exists on 200x Camry's built from Jan to June, with a specific option, etc (i.e. matched in the VIN number series), there should be the focus to put this info in the customer file so that when they come in for service, this issue is taken care of as a customer focus mandate.

Its a pity auto manufacturers are only concerned about making revenue and not customer satisfaction.

CarGuy... All you have to do is understand that not every little factory discovery about your car is worthy of an expensive All Points Bulletin broadcast mail notice to all owners! Real safety issues (Recalls) are worth a broadcast mailing. As far as customer satisfaction is concerned, plenty of people would bitch if they were hung by a brand new rope.

How much more would you be willing to pay for this added customer service? It would be added to the purchase price for sure. Assume if enough wanted it AllData would gladly oblige if they could make a buck on it. I'd rather just periodically check the Free AllData site or keep ear to this NG.

Ed -

I've got every Ford TSB issued since mid-1992 (at least for the Northeast region), and I think they contain a lot of meaty stuff that vehicle owners should be aware of.

Just from the set I today from Ford (sorry, I don't get the Toyota ones):

Engine cooling fan inoperative 2003 Town Car (service procedure only) Moisture in headlamp assembly - 98-2000 Crown Victoria and 2003 Expedition Power rear window rattle on 2001-2004 Explorer Sport Trac Power rear window bounces back open when closing - 2001-2004 Sport Trac Harsh ride on certain 2003 Crown Victorias Low range or no start condition on 2002 Think Neighbor (a very odd little vehicle) Steering or limited slip chatter or shudder 2003 Expedition and Navigator Buzz, rattle or exhaust noise from 1998-2001 Mountaineer/Explorer Brake pulls - 4x4 1999-2003 F Super Duty and 2000-2001 Excursion Hard start/no start/battery lamp flicker 2002-2003 Focus Steering shudder or vibration at low speed or stop on 2001-2003 Explorer and

It seems that owners of these vehicles would be very happy to know they should look out for these problems. Also, there have been several instances in which I had to tell my Ford dealer about the availability of a TSB for a certain problem - including the infamous quarter-panel rust-through in 91-93 models. The dealers just don't read or don't remember or don't check or something!

I think it's the case that manufacturers are not crazy about TSBs getting out because it means people will be running in with their vehicles all the time asking for a repair of things that aren't necessarily broken. Also, without knowing about a TSB, a person may think the something like a vibration or knock is normal behavior and not report it for warranty action, which save the manufacturer money. Furthermore, I think that TSBs often are sort of proof of a defect in design or manufacturer that could have warranty implications - especially for the implied warranty of merchantability. I'm not sure DEALERS would want to publicize TSBs since the manufacturer reimbursement rates for work done under warranty often is less than a dealer would charge for non-warranty work. Yet, I have had dealer eager to perform TSB items under warranty - so the original poster my not be that far off. Maybe dealers SHOULD give vehicle owners access to TSB or inform them during service checks etc.

While it is true that not every vehicle will exhibit a problem described in a TSB for that year and model, it is essential in my view for car and truck owners to know what's out there and what to be on guard for. For my 92 Explorer, I discovered several problems after seeing TSBs on then, problems that I might not have known about otherwise, at least for a while.

Examples are (I know you know about these from the Explorer newsgroup):

Dimple problem in the seat track that prevented the seats from moving back and forth. Radial arm bushing problem. Need to replace corrosive petroleum brake slide grease with di-electric compound Advice against turning rotors unnecessarily during brake pad replacement (one that I know YOU know about) Repeated warnings about the need to torque lug nuts to prevent rotor warping.

I've learned TONS from TSBs. They've also helped me in negotiating after-warranty repair reimbursement from Ford.

As far as recalls, manufacturers do NOT necessarily conduct recalls for major problems unless there is a safety or environmental issue involved (and some times not even then, despite the legal requirements that they do so!).

I seems to me that Toyota puts out far fewer TSBs than Ford. I do not know if this is because Toyotas are better built (which they are) and/or because Toyota is not as aggressive as Ford in tracking and reporting problems.

For those who don't know, SUMMARIES of TSB are available for free by make, model and year from

See you back on the Explorer newsgroup, Ed.

Wolgang

I'm not sure why an effort that might gain MORE business for a dealer would add to customer costs.

Actually, if it helped dealers get more work, it might make a dealer MORE competitive, in addition to being a great customer service (not everyone knows about AllData, NHTSA or even about TSBs. On the other hand, I'm not sure that such a service would help dealers earn more, especially if the manufacturer warranty reimbursement rates are not high enough.

One of Connecticut's consumer commissioners years back (or maybe a DMV commissioner) told me that he thought it would be a good idea for dealers to put TSBs in their waiting areas and let customers read through them, maybe even charge for copies.

I think the old saying "ignorance is bliss" might apply here.

BTW, what does the Mositure in the Headlamps TSB say? I don't have any moisture in my healamps, but maybe I should start taking them apart if there is a problem.

Regards,

Ed White

Anth> Ed -

A TSB is not a recall. It is intended to be performed only if the customer complains of a problem, or the mechanic feels that the TSB is warranted during regular servicing.

Lexus dealers may very well offer TSBs... different "caliber" of customer (and they paid dearly for that little "L" on the grille). I think they deserve a level of service a bit higher than the Toyota customer.

--- Rich

I hate to ruin your bliss by telling you what the TSB says :o)

But....

It says to seal the lens and the housing of affected headlamp assembly and then gives 5 pages of procedures and drawings. It is quite involved, using hair dryer, silicon gasket, etc. If you want it, let me know, I think I can arrange it. TSB: 03-19-3.

Sorry Toyota group members.

Regards, Anthony Giorgianni

Geeze!

So you're entitled to know of a potential defect in your vehicle only if you are part of the beau monde? I might argue that it's we po' folk who need the info most. After all, we're ones most handy with the duct tape.

Would the bourgeoisie even know how to decipher a TSB? I think not!

If you really want to be ticked off, lots of people with previous model Camry's complained of front end noises which dealers could not figure out until the warranty was over. Too bad (yes, I'm being sarcastic) they never looked thru the book of TSB's. The answer was there. They discovered it when it would cost the customer hundreds of dollars to get fixed.

Toyota

posting back

Moisute is normal. The headlamps are not sealed air tight, they do breathe. After heavy rain, some sweat gets in there, lamsp on,moving down the road or both will dry them right out.

Again... the TSB is not a recall, and it is certainly not a critical safety issue or it WOULD be a recall.

The Lexus owner is more likely to bring their vehicle into the dealer on a regular basis (probably much higher percentage of leases than Toyota as well). So you have someone who has paid more for a luxury car, pays more for the dealer to service it, is more likely to complain if and when a rattle/vibration/smell occurs, and is more likely NOT to be a friendly complainer, going straight to corporate, rather than the local service manager. They are also quite brand-loyal and will more than likely be back in 3 years for a new Lexus, trading in a well cared for Lexus with 30k on it that can be sold for 75% of the cost of a new one.

By compairson, you've got the guy who scraped together the down for a Corolla VE, can barely afford to have service done by the dealer, does much of the service himself, and when he hears a rattle, is more likely to figure "Hell, it's a $15,000 car and I need to get to work". He'll drive the car for 5 years or 200,000 miles, and then complain when the dealer only wants to offer him $1500 on his trade.

Who would you take better care of?

Personally, I'm somewhere in between... I paid nearly $30k for my Tundra, but other than that, the second paragraph decribes me to a tee.

--- Rich

In news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, Rich Lockyer being of bellicose mind posted:

Hey! By choice, I resemble that! LOL 285k miles in 12 yrs. The only thing the car ever went into a shop for was tires, wheel alignments, biannual smog tests, and a transmission overhaul.

Bought my '03 Tundra last November. Just rolled 44k Been back to the dealer once... to have the window etching done, since they forgot it during dealer prep (I literally helped them peel the white plastic off of the hood prior to my test drive).

I upgraded the keyless to the alarm I installed the factory EC mirror I installed the factory woodgrain kit. Why didn't I buy a Limited? Can't get 'em in CA w/o leather :)

I did the brakes myself last weekend New Michelins the same day Two air filters Seven oil changes - Mobil-1 and M1 filter.

Yes... I have a spreadsheet that all truck maint. goes into.

--- Rich

In news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, Rich Lockyer being of bellicose mind posted:

That's a quite a bit of driving (44k miles in 11 months). Why all the miles in a pickup truck?

My Dealer (large toyota dealer in a major city) never looks at TSBs, they just throw parts at problems, rarely doing anything other than pissing off their customers. When I asked to see their TSB book, they could not even find it!

My local Toyota Dealer has high speed internet access at all service advisor stations with flat panel display units. Each adviser is REQUIRED to check into TSB's before any work orders are prepared. This way the problem can be resolved with a higher rate of success.

Well that is how it should be. These Jokers are so bad I have had to call Toyota HQ in California to get them to send the TSB to the dealer so I can have a printout...I then take it to my local independent former Toyota Master Mechanic to fix it!